Czuch: Yes, that's about right. They needed explosives because the planes & resulting fire weren't enough in themselves to bring the buildings down. And it is probable that no Arabs committed suicide. No Arabs appeared on the flight manifests released. Some planted information like a passport here or there served to identify them. Some of those indentified are still alive, according to news reports. They were patsies.

Czuch: Why do I have to show you such evidence? It is obvious no Boeing 757 hit the Pentagon. That is enough Reality to disprove the official theory, and to prove that official theory is disinformation, a cover-up of real events.

If we all agree that "Sam" is missing, and I point to a spot and say, "Look, Sam's not there!" it doesn't mean I have to know where Sam IS to know he isn't THERE. But if somebody insists on telling me he is there where I'm pointing, I know it is a lie.

http://www.pentagonstrike.co.uk/pentagon.htm


Watch this short video...and awake to Reality.

"Political Ponerology is a study of the founders and supporters of oppressive political regimes. Lobaczewski’s approach analyzes the common factors that lead to the propagation of man’s inhumanity to man. Morality and humanism cannot long withstand the predations of this evil. Knowledge of its nature – and its insidious effect on both individuals and groups - is the only antidote."

http://ponerology.com/

Here's a sobering analysis of Obama's speech from a fellow Progressive:

http://www.sott.net/articles/show/177585-Obama-s-Address-to-Congress

Czuch: If you don't know what a Wall Street crony is, nothing I can say would enlighten you. Did I say I approve of Obama's plan? I only said it is morally superior to the Bush bailout, if it helps one person in genuine need. And I think, for all of its bad points, it will probably do that. You know me, I think the whole ship is going down. Bush passed the torch to Obama, but the mission remains. Neither Bush nor Obama is really in charge, so in a way it is pointless to blame either of them.

...Bush's 700B went straight into the pockets of Wall Street cronies? Ah...consistency is a rare commodity.

If Obama's bill will help one person who needs it, it is already a morally superior action.

...was my brain. And look where that got me? lol

http://www.sott.net/articles/show/177021-Cutting-through-the-illusion-The-Grand-Chessboard


"Buy the truth, and sell it not." - Proverbs 23:23

Who is willing to pay the steep price for Truth?

Czuch: The peoples of the world in general have a better understanding of these things than most Americans do. 99%? That's still too high, even for Americans. 36% of the American people believe the Bush administration either had an active hand in 9/11 or else knowingly allowed it to happen, as a pretext for expansionism abroad. That's a hundred-million people. They also believe the 9/11 Commission is an official cover-up. More people are aware than you think.

As a matter of fact, the 9/11 Truth Movement was virtually ignored for years, until these polls came out & the powers-that-be recognized the truth was making headway, in spite of the fact that the Corporate Media has never investigated it or reported on it.

Now, there is an Info-War going on with pseudo-scientific websites supporting the official conspiracy popping up all over the place. Remember the PNAC vision of "Full Spectrum Dominence" includes the control of information.

A considerably higher number than 1% also understand the insidious nature of central banking. But you are right, a very large majority has its head in the sand.

Czuch: And that's right, these same people who finance BOTH SIDES of every war, and who pull the strings of government, ALSO are the real perpetrators of 9/11. Be an ostrich if you prefer.

Czuch: My point is that it is not the REAL ISSUE!

Read the posts below. Read what Jefferson, Wilson, & Lincoln had to say.

Learn how the Federal Reserve, the central bank of the U.S., is robbing you blind and controlling the political processes, thereby enslaving us all. For goodness sakes, WAKE UP!

--To the former Republic of the United States of America--

But, as active citizens of this once great land, we ought rather to take the advice of Dylan Thomas:

"Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light."

THOMAS JEFFERSON:
"The central bank is an institution of the most deadly hostility existing against the Principles and form of our Constitution. I am an Enemy to all banks discounting bills or notes for anything but Coin. If the American People allow private banks to control the issuance of their currency, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the People of all their Property until their Children will wake up homeless on the continent their Fathers conquered."

WOODROW WILSON:
"I am a most unhappy man. I have unwittingly ruined my country. A great industrial nation is controlled by its system of credit. Our system of credit is concentrated. The growth of the nation, therefore, and all our activities are in the hands of a few men. We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated Governments in the civilized world, no longer a Government by free opinion, no longer a Government by conviction and the vote of the majority, but a Government by the opinion and duress of a small group of dominant men." - after signing the Federal Reserve into existence

ABRAHAM LINCOLN:
"I see in the near future a crisis approaching that unnerves me and causes me to tremble for the safety of my country. . . . corporations have been enthroned and an era of corruption in high places will follow, and the money power of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until all wealth is aggregated in a few hands and the Republic is destroyed." -- Nov. 21, 1864 (letter to Col. William F. Elkins)

Czuch: Here's how it works:

1. The Federal Reserve is the central bank of the U.S.A. Nevertheless it is privately owned, and its shareholders secret.

2. Whenever the U.S. Treasury wants money, the FR prints the money. It doesn't give the government money it HAS! It creates money out of thin air & loans it to the government, with interest.

3. The government gives this money away, a little to poor folk maybe, but most to major corporations, oil companies, etc., and the rest it uses to keep itself afloat. As we know, with all its departments, including the Pentagon & clandestine operations, Homeland Security now, etc., the U.S. is a big operation.

4. As soon as the FR has printed new money, the value of the money you have GOES DOWN! It is more cash covering the same amount of goods in the market-place. So, in effect, when new money is printed, it amounts to taking a little from every citizen and then redistributing it as it sees fit, and as mentioned above. This is the tax that is killing America, the hidden tax.

5. Wealthy people are by far the biggest recipients of these government handouts. They have to pay a little bit of it back, in the form of higher prices (inflation) & being in a larger tax bracket. But they still benefit from the process, because they pay back less than they receive.

6. The common man, poor or middle class, receives far less government aid, yet his dollar is still deflated by the currency increase. He loses MORE in the bargain as a result. He must pay higher prices but his wages do not increase proportionately, etc.

7. Finally, most taxes go to pay the INTEREST on the Federal debt owed to the Federal Reserve. So, in a nutshell this is the process: the FR produces cash at no cost, which cash then, as if by magic, is equal in value to existing cash. All cash is reduced in value now, but to the shareholders of the FR, this fact is inconsequential, because it cost them nothing to begin with! They get paid back with interest for doing nothing!

So, the real winners, in the overall scheme, are the private bankers. And they pull the strings of not only the U.S. government but also the corporations to whom they "give away" money. This is not Econ 101, by the way. You get a little in Money & Banking. You get zero of it in the financial media. But there is the truth, for anyone to investigate.

Czuch: Now there you go again. I make a point about inflation and you pretend it was never said, just plow right ahead with some copy-&-paste material from some rightwing think tank that, were it true, would still be begging the question.

(V): You guys sound civilized. I've heard of that word, but never really experienced it. Civilization would be a good thing to have here.

Czuch: The professor at the U. of Alaska (Rachunak, I think) tried to convert me to conservatism because I was his best student. There's plenty I don't know about economics, but I'm no dummy.

Czuch: That's right, they have all the same rights. But they shouldn't have! That's my point.

Price gouging is a separate issue, as you say, though it is very real. But it is not true that the government gets most of its money through the wealthy, or that the poor pay nothing. It gets most of its wealth through INFLATION! Inflation is the hidden tax that robs you & me every day, a penny at a time.

Here's a great book on this, by a conservative:

"The Creature from Jekyll Island"
http://www.amazon.com/Creature-Jekyll-Island-Federal-Reserve/dp/0912986212

Charles Martel: You need some solid evidence before you can rightly accuse Czuch of such a conspiracy. As to conspiracies, I don't believe in them either, except the ones that are true. :o)

Czuch: I do advocate for the poor. It's just that they'd have a better chance in a free system than in a system stacked against them.

"Does that include allowing companies to send jobs overseas"

If we had a truly free market worldwide, sure that would be fine. Corporations aren't people, and they would need restrictions.

Czuch: Even if those stats were correct, which I correct, they still don't include inflation & price gouging. But it makes no sense to me, that a wealthy man would pay himself 6 dollars so he could offer gas for 6 dollars less. Maybe an oil guy pays a steel guy, and then a steel guy pays an oil guy, but it amounts to the same thing. It doesn't make sense and it isn't the way things work. Why are the rich getter richer and poor getting poorer? It can only be because wealth is being transferred. This is simple logic.

Czuch: I thought our agreement was that cutting out handouts altogether, both to the rich & poor, is a better solution than we have know, because it would even the playing field and give everyone a chance to compete in a truly free market. Was that not our agreement?

Then I said, if we keep the handout system, it is better to let the money trickle up than trickle down, for a variety of reasons. But we didn't agree on this point.

Czuch: So you're saying the money comes from the wealthy to pay off the wealthy? No my friend, the money comes from me & you, in taxes, in future debt, in inflation, and through price gouging.

Czuch: If we had public transit to get me there...who knows. lol

Czuch: Really? What printout did you read to get that info...the one supplied by the wealthy? lol

The wealthy jack up prices mercilessly unless & until people just have to stop buying gas. Then naturally they lower them. It's called monopoly capitalism.

Czuch: Yeah and nobody goes hungry. What a concept!

Besides, if I'm not mistaken, England has invested in public transit, whereas in America in most places you drive or you're up the creek.

(V): There's no high like killing for God, I guess. I think Jesus also had something to say on that.....

(V): Naturally it would also include New Age gurus who work for the buck.

(V): H.P. Blavatsky, the founder of the Theosophy movement in the late 19th century, said that all forms of spiritual, psychic & natural "magic," done for selfish ends, is Black Magic by definition. This would include today forms of mind manipulation by politicians, preachers & even some corporate commercials, I would think.

(V): "Have you heard of the luck of the Irish..." (singing) -- John Lennon, one of my heroes. Another is William Blake, the great romantic poet who decried the abuses of Church & State during the Industrial Revolution.

(V): Speaking of bad Commies.....

If you get a chance, you might look up that BBC documentary that aired in 1992 (I think), on Operation GLADIO.

This was a clandestine NATO operation, headed by U.S. Intelligence. It remained secret almost 4 decades, before being exposed.

After WWII, NATO left secret "stay-behind" units throughout Western Europe, ostensibly to sabotage a Soviet invasion, but actually what they did in the ensuing decades was carry out false-flag terror operations against their own citizens, in places like Italy. It was done wherever the communist movement seemed to be gaining ground through democratic processes, and included the kidnapping & murder of high officials on occasion.

So...what we have in this case, is the Anti-Communist West killing its own citizens & blaming the Communists...classic false-flag at its best. Naturally, the U.S. media didn't report on this documentary.

(V): You're absolutely right. And now the same McCarthy-style mindset that hunted for Commies in the old days is looking for Muslim terrorists & their sympathizers today. Going back further into European history, we had the Inquisition torturing witches and, in the Protestant movement, Calvin burning "heretics" at the stake. I think I see a pattern here....

Peer Review: a process used for checking the work performed by one's equals (peers) to ensure it meets specific criteria.

Peer Review: the evaluation of creative work or performance by other people in the same field in order to maintain or enhance the quality of the work or performance in that field.

Now this:

"116th Peer-reviewed Paper Published in Journal of 9/11 Studies: 'The Missing Jolt: A Simple Refutation of the NIST-Bazant Collapse Hypothesis' "

http://www.911truth.org/article.php?story=20090117234838631


Yeah, this stuff is pretty heady. I guess some think all these scientists, architects, engineers, etc., publish papers refuting the government's conspiracy theory for fun.

Czuch: I'm glad we can see eye-to-eye on something...or at least be in the same ball park.

Bernice: No, I haven't read them all. I'm good, but I'm not Superman. The first link I gave, to the article by the BYU physicist, is a good place for you to start. :o)

I've been using the wrong word. Just going back over some papers, the word is "thermite."

Artful Dodger: Winning?

I'll admit you're doing your damndest (sp), though how you transform a collapse showing ALL the obvious signs of controlled demolition into a "routine" collapse by fire which breaks many laws of physics, is a wonder to me.

But this debate is healthy for both of us. Everyone else just has to suffer through it. lol

Artful Dodger: Get back with me on what you discover. lol

And here are 52 peer reviewed scientific articles:

Journal of 9/11 Studies

http://www.journalof911studies.com/

Read this illustrated paper by a BYU physicist:

"Why Indeed Did the WTC Buildings Completely
Collapse?"

http://www.journalof911studies.com/volume/200609/WhyIndeedDidtheWorldTradeCenterBuildingsCompletelyCollapse.pdf

Artful Dodger: Nice post. Actually, many people have talked. People in the FBI, people in the FAA. Even people in the military, but the records of their speech was erased (i.e., ignored) by the 9/11 Commission. There have been additionally many "slips of tongue" disapproving the official theory. And WTC-7 is not by any means the strongest leg of the argument. It is one leg, pretty strong I think. But not even the tip of the iceberg.

Czuch: Art's just getting warmed up! He loves a good mystery as much as the next man. You ought to climb aboard, there's plenty of room. :o)

Artful Dodger: Welcome back Dan! Nice of you to pop in with such an awful post! lol :o)

Czuch: I didn't word that entirely correctly. I meant the defense budget needs to be drastically cut, and our imperial agenda ended.

Czuch: Yes, a lot of it is trickle down. But as you say, the infrastructure is what is actually needed, and would create jobs. The food stamps, etc., are also needed. But the most important single factor that's needed, and won't be addressed, is the giant defense budget that robs us all blind while havoc in the rest of the world.

Czuch: lol It worked under Roosevelt! It certainly can be no less effective than what we have now!

Czuch: I'm pretty skeptical of Obama's program myself, or of his "good will." A lot of that money "looks" like its going to the poor, but is actually more handouts to the rich....more trickle down. But some of it may help the poor, which is good in itself. I think his real aim is encouraging austerity, the tight belt-buckle, for the American people in general, all for the "greater good." He calls it sacrifice. But the defense budget won't be cut, so the imperial mission is still front-and-center. Will his modifications of the economy work? I don't think so.

Czuch: My point is that giving money to the big oil companies doesn't help the poor or the economy in general, it hurts it. It's a smoke screen. It's sheer robbery by those who don't NEED it.

Yes, stopping ALL handouts (Ron Paul's answer) would be far better than the system in place now, because it would even the playing field. A lot of these big boys would go under. A lot of folks who are poor now would rise. You say you believe in competition. Be consistent then!

But with the system we have now, it would be more effective, not to mention more ethical, to give the money to the people who NEED it, and thereby stimulate the economy from below.

Bernice: He certainly was a mind controller par excellence. I'm glad Bush Jr. didn't have his charisma. I hope Obama doesn't. Hitler didn't have the market cornered on mind control. His example has not been forgotten, by those who wish to follow in his footsteps.