anastasia: Thank you for coming to my defense, if not of my position on 9/11, at least against Artful Dodger's admittedly ad hominem style of debate. But don't be too hard on him. He has learned it from those he admires in the media, the Rush Limbaughs & Shaun Hannitys, etc. I certainly don't expect Dan or anyone else to believe my contention about 9/11 (that it was an inside job with terrible ramifications for America and the rest of the world), based on my bare assertion. It is a matter, however, worthy of deep & impartial investigation, which neither has been done officially nor privately by Dan or most people who post here. So how, in such a case, could they rationally agree with me? What I hope to do is stir enough interest that some (never all) will investigate for themselves. If I can't manage this, I have still honorably stood my ground & debated my point.

The discussion of politics DOES take thick skin! And one of the first obstacles one must overcome in debate is the irrational, yet effective (for unthinking people) tactic of Ridicule. This method is normally employed by those whose arguments are otherwise weak or, perhaps, nonexistent. Everyone has an opinion, but we ought to base our opinions on evidence, not so-called authority...if, that is, we are concerned with truth.

So please post your views, Anastasia, including, if necessary, your opinion that Artful Dodger's methods are sometimes less than fair. :o)

Actually, the contention is that no Boeing 757-200 hit the Pentagon, which means whatever hit the Pentagon wasn't American Airlines flight 77.

But most of you have better eyes than I. So I invite you, in these photos taken on site, to Hunt the Boeing!

http://www.asile.org/citoyens/numero13/pentagone/erreurs_en.htm

If anyone here can produce video footage or solid photographic evidence of a Boeing hitting the Pentagon or wrecked at the Pentagon, please by all means do so.

Artful Dodger: “nutty theories”
“unknown nut cases”
“conspiracy theorists”
“a bunch of land in a Florida swamp”
“wacky theory”
“conspiracy nuts”

Well, Dan, these are nice emotional outbursts if somewhat ad hominem when referring to legitimate argumentation.

I apologize for my misconceived notion of comparing you to the distinguished ethical theologian, David Ray Griffin.

Bernice: I didn't know you aren't American. I won't trade insults. You are a citizen of the world, of course. :o)

Artful Dodger: :o)

I would only recommend you read Griffin before you gather your talking points.

Seriously Dan, just having re-read "The New Pearl Harbor," it reads like a book YOU would have written...the thorough research, the organizational skill, the lucid presentation of points, etc.

Artful Dodger: lol

Bernice: Ok, politics.

Your government is using 9/11, which is a false-flag operation in common with a history of false-flag operations, as a Pretext for a global domination strategy (including the military control of space, as well as control of Eurasia by controlling the oil reserves in Central Asia) which is resulting in the deaths of 100s of thousands, if not millions, of innocent men, women & children in the Middle East...for starters. And you, as an American citizen, have a responsibility to know what your government is doing & why...and then, to participate in the process for or against, etc.

Is that political enough? :o)

Everyone believes in conspiracies. After all, whenever two or more people secretly collude to perform an action which effects others not in the know, it is a conspiracy. In the case of 9/11, some believe the official conspiracy theory, according to which Osama bin Ladin & others colluded in a cave in Afghanistan to pull off a miracle & succeeded. Others believe the conspiracy lies closer to home, that bin Ladin is the scapegoat, etc. As such, the pejorative term "conspiracy theory", as it does not add qualitatively to the debate, ought to be set aside by all serious thinkers & inquirers.

Popular Mechanics

I hold in my hand a book written by David Ray Griffin (theologian with over 20 books published) a book entitled: "Debunking 9/11 Dubunking: An Answer to Popular Mechanics and Other Defenders of the Official Conspiracy Theory".

Griffin argues his case using evidence gleaned from architects, demolition experts, engineers, physicists, federal government employees from many agencies, firemen on the scene, eye-witness accounts, etc.

It is highly recommened reading, but here is one interesting quote about it:

"Professor Griffin is the nemesis of the 9/11 cover-up. This new book destroys the credibility of the NIST and Popular Mechanics reports and annihilates his critics." - Paul Craig Roberts, Assistant Secretary of the US Treasury during the Reagan administration

But I would first recommend Griffin's first two books on the subject: "The New Pearl Harbor: Disturbing Questions about the Bush Administration and 9/11"; and "The 9/11 Commission Report: Omissions and Distortions".

Or you might just google David Ray Griffin and read some of his online articles, which are cogent, rational, and give you the gist of his arguments without purchasing a book.

But you might also want to read "Crossing the Rubicon" by Michael Rupert, which closely examines the drive for oil & global domination behind 9/11 and the so-called War on Terror.

Or you might want to read Barrie Zwicker's "Towers of Deception: The Media Cover-Up of 9/11." Or Webster Tarpley's "9/11 Synthetic Terror: Made in the U.S.A." These are just a few recommendations. There are many books by many researchers on the market.

Or, if you hate reading (in which case you might be in a bit of trouble), there are dozens of quality DVDs which cover numerous topics related to 9/11 and its coverup.

What I am attempting to demonstrate is that, right or wrong, I (and many others) are not going off half-cocked or shooting from the hip. I am talking about legitimate research. I am talking about, not a litttle, but a wealth of information, a veritable mountain of evidence, indicating an inside job. I was frankly stunned when I began to look into it with an open (if somewhat skeptical) mind.

A GREAT site for serious researchers is History Commons (historycommons.org) where a complete 9/11 timeline has been gathered from mainstream media sources all over the world.

But use your common sense for a moment and just try to answer these simple questions (off the top of my head) about the fall of the Twin Towers:

1. Why did they fall at nearly free-fall speed?
2. Why did they explode & disintegrate on the way down, pulverizing all the concrete into dust & everything else into tiny fragments?
3. Why did they fall into their own footprints, rather than topple over?
4. Why were large projectiles thrown outward from the towers (in some cases hundreds of feet) on their way down?
5. Why were squibs filmed shooting out of lower floors during the descent (an indication of demolition)?
6. Why were explosions reported by numerous eye-witnesses, including firefighters?
7. Why, in the history of the world, before or since, has a high rise steel-framed skyscraper NEVER collapsed as a result of fire, yet on 9/11 in NYC not one but THREE towers supposedly did so (this includes WTC-7, a 47-story building that fell at 5:20PM)?
8. Why were domlition rings seen around the buildings as they collapsed?
9. Why was all the steel conveniently sliced into 30-foot segments (another sign of controlled demolition) which were immediately removed & sold to China and elsewhere for scrap-iron, rather than being examined?
10. Why was molten metal found still smoldering in the sub-basement levels of all three towers WEEKS after 9/11? Do jet fuel fires burn hot enough to create molten metal?

Those are just a few questions about a single point in the argument against the official conspiracy theory. Go and look at the videos for yourself. Read the eye-witness accounts, etc. Use your brain. The bottom line....if the towers were brought down by controlled demolition (and they were), it has to be an inside job.

Some seed fell by the wayside, some on rocky ground, the fowls of the air ate it up, etc. Some sprang up, but the plant had no root in itself (i.e., no passionate hunger for Truth at any cost) and soon withered. But some fell on good ground.

The seed has been sown. 9/11 was an Inside Job. Dare to research it!

All these other questions are pointless....left vs. right, Dems vs. Repugs...this bailout bill or the last one...they distract us, and purposely so. The seeds (the other seeds, the evil ones) of your servitude are being sown as we speak.

How many can find their way out of the Matrix?

But you know, most people wouldn't touch Truth with a thirtynine-and-a-half-foot pole.

There, the Prophet hath spoken. :o)

Vikings: lol

Bernice: Thanks for your opinion, Bernice. All I suggest is that those who are willing to examine evidence, do so. After all, in the end it is not your opinion or my opinion that is significant. Only facts are significant. I certainly agree that the implications are disturbing. However, there are many rational scientists, architects, engineers, military personnel, professors, theologians and the like who profoundly question the official story about 9/11...and for good reason. It is because they have examined the evidence. Considering it IS my country, that would seem to me to be the patriotic thing to do.

Czuch: I don't deny 9/11, Czuch. It certainly happened. I simply argue that we did it. As you correctly surmise, so do the sponsors of the websites mentioned. I think you are right on one point. It would be a waste of time for you to look. :o)

Czuch: Thanks Czuch. :o)

My main criticism of Obama is that he will not investigate and prosecute the multiple crimes of the American Empire in the 21st Century, which include the orchestration and carrying out of the 9/11 so-called terrorist attacks. And the reason he won't do so is because he is a part of that American Empire, the very nominal leader of it now, in fact. He will, admittedly, give it a more pleasing face to the rest of the world, but cannot and has no intention, I'm afraid, of changing the nature of the beast.

I'd recommend to those who are not afraid to break the molds of their minds, the following sites:

Religious Leaders for 9/11 Truth

Veterans for 9/11 Truth

Scholars for 9/11 Truth and Justice

Pilots for 9/11 Truth

Etc., Etc. I didn't believe any of this at first either. But I was willing to investigate. And also willing to call a spade a spade.

If the myth of American moral supremacy & benignity is too vital for your mental-emotional stability, I'd recommend you avoid these sites and remain in the dark. Ignorance won't pay off in the end but it certainly 'seems' the less precarious road to travel in the short-term.

My main criticism of Obama is that he's too conservative. :o)

Lisa G: I'm merely teasing Dan (Artful Dodger) for complaining about the new administration, i.e., he is whining or crying.

Artful Dodger: Cry me a river. :o)