playBunny: I never thought of that, but I believe I understand what you are saying.

That is if I resign in a game where I'm currently only in "gammon", then I would only lose the 2 points. But that might be something I do because of how my men are setup, there is a good change that I might be "backgammoned" and lose 3 points - so beter to resign and get 2 points then chance losing 3 points. (At least that is what I think you are trying to say.)

BIG BAD WOLF:
...would it be a problem or is it just not implimented yet to list games with the cube as "pro" games...?
...I realize it would be alot of extra space to list new BKR ratings for each "pro" game of the 6 existing 'gammon variations... but the fact is a good "pro"gammon player may only be an average 'normal' game player... an average player may only win 40% of the time in a normal game and yet win 65% of "pro" games...
... :o) just a suggestion since you're taking them!

BIG BAD WOLF: I read that to be that you don't want to resign because it will calculate points by where you are when you resign, and not give the oppertunity to resign for fewer points that would be the likely result

LionsLair: That actually came up a long time ago when Fencer was first introducing the game. Since the cube has been added to all the gammon games (6 versions currently), Fencer did not really want to add a variant for the cube version and double the number of games. (Then the question of doing it like other sites and make 3 points cube version a different game then a 5 point cube version, etc...)

In the end, Fencer liked the idea of making the cube an additional "option" to the game rather then making it a new game.

LionsLair: I've already asked Fencer about that. The cube games are not separate variations and so they "share" the same ratings scale. There are arguments for having the games as separate (another rating scale to climb) and for not (it keeps things simpler, not least of which is the length of those dropdown boxes!). Fencer's all for simplicity at this point!

He did mention, though, that when he unveils BrainKing's Ladders (in due course, lol) we'll have separate ones for cube and non-cube backgammons, so we can use those to demostrate our respective chequer and cube skills. :-))

I like the current resignation system, even if it requires making some extra moves to get it right. On dailygammon we often see people complain about people who repeatedly offer a normal resign when gammons or more are possible. That's not a problem here.
A possibility to resign the entire match at once could be nice, though.

BIG BAD WOLF:
ok, thanx... I understand, I just haven't seen anything about it...
one other thing, I gather from vague skimming of other posts that the 'bug' has been fixed in the dice program?... meaning that whenever possible that both dice must be used?

LionsLair: yes, the "bug" where you have to use both dice has been fixed.

Vikings: That's correct. Even if it's obvious that you won't be gammoned, a resignation will cost a gammon or even a backgammon unless a man's been taken off first.

frolind: I can see how that would be annoying in turn-based games. At Vog, where it's real-time, that sort of foolishness is rare (perhaps because it's more hassle asking for the resignation than it is to say no each time). I'm okay enough with the current way at the moment, though I'm concerned for those players who get caught out and lose points needlessly.

BBW I've slightly changed what I said in that post so it may not read as you originally saw, but the bit about avoiding backgammon by resigning a gammon wouldn't be the case. (Like you, I did think it might but it's more about losing more points than you should rather than fewer.)

BIG BAD WOLF:
too cool! ...guess I'll become a member now!
...been waiting a couple years for this, call me a hard sell, but I just never felt good about jumping on the bandwagon when the site didn't work right for the games I prefer to play...
cuddo's to fencer! :o)

All: If gammon is still possible you shouldn't be allowed resign, so it would only be an issue if you haven't borne off yet but are close enough that it is inevitable. In this case it's usually only a few extra moves.

The list so far.

1) Would be nice to have the current score up next to the playing board instead of buried down in the "game information". Or maybe next to the Points, have the current match score for each player as well.

1a) Change "Points" to "Pips".

2) In the table of "Finished games of this match" which displays who won each game, it would be nice to see how many points were won in each game (without having to select each game and counting the "D"s!)

3) In the list of games which make up a match, the winner is highlighted with a yellow background, no matter which player won. (Example) It would be easier to read that table if each player had a different colour. So Marfitalu could be in yellow (when he won) and Tulip in cyan (when she won). The loser would always be in white, though.

4) A time out forfeits the whole match, not just the current game.
[playBunny: i don't like this one. My opponent in a 5-pointer is about to time out. I don't like winning that way. We're bearing off and I've effectively won already, so it's okay, but I'd hate to get the whole match just because he missed the end of this game.]

5) No draw offers on single games.

6) Show the cube on the correct side of the board after a double has been accepted. That is, with the owner, the one who is able to offer a double.
Done

7) Change the "D" and "+" in the moves list to "Double" and "Take". [Fencer says that's a biggie because notation is language-neutral and the the notation code was designed without translation requirements in mind. Might be okay if other languages don't mind "Double", "Take" and "Drop", perhaps?]

8) For completeness, Add an explicit "Drop" to the moves list (though it would be "-" in the current notation).

9) Auto-roll. Doesn't give the Dice/double choice but goes straight to the dice. Useful for players when they know they won't be doubling for a while.

10) Buttons for [Roll] and [Double] instead of links.

11) Use the words "Take" and "Drop" on the "double-offered" buttons rather than "Accept" and Reject". (Dropping the cube makes more sense to me anyway because it also means dropping the game.)

12) A note at the end of the moves list of a finished game saying "XXX wins P points (Cube 2 x N)" where N is the "degree" of the game, 1, 2 or 3.

13) Display the dice roll in the moves list. [This one's a high priority for me]

14) Implement the request-resign-accept/deny dialogue.
14a) Or highlist the "Warning: N points will be lost" message, for example, in red.

15) Allow the whole match to be resigned.

playBunny: What do you mean by #3...different background colours?

playBunny: Even if each player was in the same column all the way donw the list it would be easier, but it seems right now to be designed exactly in the way as to be the hardest to read.

SueQ: I think for example one person highlighted in yellow and the other person highlighted in red no matter who wins or loses

LOL.. oh no, you have to read the names???!!!!

I get what you're saying..I'm all for anything making things as simple to understand as possible.. It is kinda funny though..

Don't mind me..

rod03801: Not only read them, but count the occurences of each. I recently played a 10 wins match and it isn't at all useful. Might as well hunt around for the score, which is buried somewhere on the page.

I understand, grenv. I think it is a good idea. I just can see the humor in it too.

The first doubling cube tournament.

playBunny: The 16) was always working. Or is there some problem with backgmmon matches?

Fencer: Ah, beg your pardon. That one came to me as I was waking up this morning so it's untested. Naughty me made an assumption. I'll delete the list just posted as there's nothing else new on it.

For those of you who don't know how to play with the backgammon cube yet, I created a backgammon 5 point cube tournament where no BKR ratings will be taken - so a great way to jump in and play with the cube.

http://brainking.com/en/Tournaments?trg=11751

Sorry I am sure this was already discussed somewhere in the past 400 posts, but are games played with the double cube considered for BKR the same as with all other backgammon games?

Czuch Chuckers: yes

All right, I've fixed the doubling cube position. It is shown on the possessor's side which is the player who accepted the double offer.

Fencer: Thanks! Now I can stop swearing at myself for forgetting to double, just to realize that I didn't have cube access. :)

How does the BKR work with these cube games? For example, if you win a 21 point match, is that worth one win as far as BKR goes?

Hyper Backgammon is a pretty quick game, so a 21 point cube match is Perfect for this game:

Hyper 21 - Starts November 5th

= = = = = =

Plus since some do not know how to play with the cube, some practice tournaments have been set up where NO BKR Ratings will be effected - great way to jump right in and learn.

Oct 20 - 5 Point Cube Backgammon #1

Oct 30 - 5 Point Cube Backgammon #2

Czuch Chuckers: I believe right now a 21 point cube games counts the same as a 1 point cube game.

Now don't quote me on this, but I believe it will be something Fencer will look at changing some time down the road, but it is not high on his priority list. Again, do not quote me on this since I'm not 100% sure.

Hope this is fun....

It's a set of questions posed on the Usenet newgroup rec.games.backgammon and viewable via Google Newsgroups. As such it uses text format, so the board setups are a bit awkward to read, especially as chequer movement is the "wrong" way and the home tables are on the left.

People discuss their answers but the final answer is uisually in terms of a GbnuBg rollout. For those not familiar with that it will probably look like so much gobbledegook. Don't worry too much about that; the discussions should be interesting.

Questions 1, 2 and 3
Question 4
Question 5
Question 6
Question 7
Question 8
Question 9
Question 10
Questions 11 and 12
Question 13
Question 14
Question 15
Question 16
Question 17
Question 18

Most articles on gammonvillage are for paid subscribers, but the Brain Busters are free.
Here are the current Brain Busters. Type "brain busters" in the search field there (and click go) to find older Brain Busters.

frolind: Those are great. For those who like life to be easy, here they are (minus Question 4 which couldn't be found):

[Q_1]   [Q_2]   [Q_3]   [Q_5]   [Q_6]   [Q_7]   [Q_8]   [Q_9]   [Q_10]   [Q_11]   [Q_12]   [Q_13]   [Q_14]   [Q_15]   [Q_16]   [Q_17]   [Q_18]   [Q_19]   [Q_20]   [Q_21]   [Q_22]   [Q_23]   [Q_24]   [Q_25]   [Q_26]   [Q_27]   [Q_28]   [Q_29]   [Q_30]   [Q_31]   [Q_32]   [Q_33]   [Q_34]   [Q_35]   [Q_36]   [Q_37]   [Q_38]   [Q_39]   [Q_40]   [Q_41]   [Q_42]   [Q_43]   [Q_44]   [Q_45]   [Q_46]   [Q_47]   [Q_48]

For a backgammon tournament with the cube, I would suggest changing the way the tournament finishes. It should finish with a single cube match (perhaps longer) rather than a series of games, or worse yet a series of cube matches.

grenv: That's already an option when creating the tournament.

frolind: Ok, it's not clear. How do you choose a tournament where all games in the tournament are cube matches?

grenv: There are two places where you choose the match type when creating a tournament. You must choose match with cube on both of them.

frolind: I see... scroll down you moron.

grenv: At the top you specify the Match type as N points with cube. Down towards the bottom, below the time controls, you specify the Final likewise.
(It makes more sense to me that the match types go together.)

grenv: I have already been doing that in the cube tournament I create - but would be nice if by some way if it is a tournament with a cube, the default ending with 2 players will be the same since I'm sure I will forget to change the option in both places sooner or later.

Perhaps the final match type settings could have one more option, which could be the default selected choice: "Same as for normal rounds".

frolind: That should be the default selection.

I'm thinking that the longer matches make the rating award more fair because it allows the luck a chance to even out and let the higher rated player supposedly better playing skills to make the points closer to the odds of their winning a series of games.

I've never played with this double cube, but when I did Backgammon we always counted gammons and backgammons though we didn't bet on the game. We'd usually just play first one to five game points. I'll have to get me a Backgammon set one of these days and see if I can get a game going. We usually play cards, so I doubt if it comes to pass. Least ways I still have BrainKing to play it on.

On all backgammon sites with ratings, the length of the match affects the number of points awarded for wins and losses. On the one hand, a longer match between two players of equal strength is worth more points than a shorter match between the same two players. On the other hand, a longer match between players of unequal strength may be worth more points if the weaker player wins, but fewer points if the stronger player wins. This is because the stronger player's chances of winning increase as the match length increases.

Is it possible to set up a series of games that counts gammons and backgammons but does not use the double cube?
That's how I remember playing the game. First one to five game points is a pretty good game.

Since I'm just trying out the double cube, I might like playing that way better after I've played it a few times. I'll have to see. In the meantime, it'd still be cool to play a series without the double cube and still count gammons and backgammons instead of the games always being valued at one point. A skunk should count extra, and that is what getting a gammon is all about. I definitely do not like the proposal of not counting the gammons in games that use the cube that haven't yet been doubled. If that comes to pass it should be an option for the game creator.

alanback: Do these other sites have a sliding scale to take into account these things you write about?

Walter: You could always agree with your opponent that neither will double.

The Backgammon rating formula values a match as 4 x Sqrt (Match length). This is then apportioned according to the probabilities of each player winning (which is calculated from the rating difference).

playBunny: I'd rather be able to set the game up how I want it played and let the site take care of all the details. I remember the bad blood from people forgetting or missing their gentleman's agreement about the dice usage not too long ago. It is true that I could play selected people that would honor it, but if I want to have an open tournament without the double cube and still have gammons count I wouldn't be able to stop someone from ignoring it and playing it their advantage when the time was right.

Walter Montego: Once you use the cube you won't want to go back I'm betting.

grenv: Yeah, it's like a drug! You can't beat the feeling of being 4-1 down in a 5-pointer and winning gammon with a 2-cube. Better than sex, Ecstacy, crack..

(Okay, I exaggerate. It can't beat a nice cup of tea)