alanback: funny story . . . what's your ID on IYT?

playBunny: I used to do that at ItsYourTurn. Compiled ELO ratings by collecting the results of all tournament matches. I wrote a script -- I think it was in Perl -- that did it all automatically. That got me banned from IYT for a short time for using too much of their bandwidth!

Hrqls: If you're familiar with Html then it's pretty easy. Fetch the page (using a browser control), find the table and extract the records (standard but possibly messy string handling). Now you've got the data and you're in familiar territory...

playBunny: true :) i never wrote a program which used information from a website to update though

(although i can see how i can do it (probably :)))

Hrqls: Oh my, that's dedication. Sounds like the job for a program if you intend to keep this list updated.

TC: the easiest way to do it would be to determine how many players are in the top 30% for each type, then go to the list with the least ranked players, which would be anti-backgammon ... go through the top 30%, click on the players profiles and check if they are within the top 30% for each type .. if so .. then add the name and ranks to a spreadsheet ..

at least thats what i did with the top 100 (although i checked all the names in the crowded top 100 ... which was just a random type to start with :))

Hrqls: What you think for this hard work. Direct copy and paste the mentioned pages to the spreadsheet (like Excel) and then work for calculation, for the first samples?

Then we need update period and update place to fix them. If The Big Boss (Fencer) shows interest for it, our work may be lighter.

Hrqls:
As Marfitalu offered, 'BRANCH' may alias name for all gammon types. I second also your 4 sub types!

Marfitalu:

Marfitalu: lol! nice i didnt realize you could form a word with it :)
b = backgammon
r = race backgammon
a = anti backgammon
n = nackgammon
h = hyper backgammon

Hrqls: you mean it would be only 4 of the all 6 type.. lol

TC: *nod* .. ideal would be 4 sub types :)

back + nack
back + nack + crowded + race
b + n + c + r + h
b + n + c + r + h + a

thats quite some work though :)

Hrqls: My rating is not inside 30% for anti-backgammon also! But, we must begin from some point. If acceptable, we may 2 sub types extra, with or without anti.

TC: *nod* ... i suggested 10% .. but 20% seems better as there so few ranked players for anti-backgammon

*sniff* i am not in the top 20% of anti-backgammon .. so i might do it for 30% ;)

Hrqls:

playBunny: you didnt even get a splinter ?? i knew i aimed bad .. but i didnt know it was that bad ;)

Hrqls: Remember that miracle with those 10 grand pianos that fell off a skyscraper and crashed to the ground all around me yet I didn't even get hit by a splinter? I think I'll take a stroll through the lion's den at the Zoo. I've always wanted to see them close up and stroke one.

playBunny: :) .... but remember that game i had before .. in which i did win in a similar position ... opponent beared off almost all, me with a single on 1 (or 24) ..

i guess have to forget that game though and dont use it as a guidance :)

thanks! the game had me wonder for a moment .. i have learned some more about the odds now though .. will drop it like a smelly dead cat for sure next time :)

Hrqls: In that game you wouldn't care about gammons. It's such an overwhelming loser that you'd drop it like a smelly dead cat and be grateful for your opponent's mistake.

Your opponent should have kept the prime and hit you as soon as possible in the hope of being hit as you come off the bar and, in turn, hitting your blot on 4, or otherwise picking up a companion for your trapped man. That would increase his gammon chances considerably. Even without hitting you, it is, as grenv said, too good to double.

Hrqls:
Your study is good for the top 100 of all gammon types. But as you know, players of the gammon variants are not in the same quantities. (Click to http://brainking.com/en/Ratings for the latest members quantities.)

For example, today:
Backgammon: 895
Nackgammon: 251
Anti Backgammon: 61
Race Backgammon: 253
Crowded Backgammon: 209
Hyper Gammon: 521

The rating and BKRs self also goes up and down in some periods.

My offer is for the sampling method:

If we get the same percent for these games from their total players and then calculate the ratings and the BKRs for the players; we can get better performance results.

My offer is for the sample percent is: 20% enough good to be able to see the Masters of Gammon variants.

If this offer is acceptable generally, we can begin to calculate the following input numbers:

Backgammon: 895 x 0.2 = 189 players
Nackgammon: 251 x 0.2 = 50 players
Anti Backgammon: 61 x 0.2 = 12 players
Race Backgammon: 253 x 0.2 = 51 players
Crowded Backgammon: 209 x 0.2 = 42 players
Hyper Gammon: 521 x 0.2 = 104 players

frolind: *nod* seemed quite some labor to me .. was hoping for a faster way :)

Hrqls: One way to find it out would be to go through the missing rolls and add up the misses for the roll after that, counting the misses after non-doubles twice. I'm sure someone has a quicker way to figure it out.

grenv: ah ok .. a little under 10% .. hmm .. i dont have a feel for % in this game yet .. is 10% a chance to take into account or can you neglect it ? ;)

Hrqls: What do you mean "you are not sure if you would have been gammoned" ? Of course not, it's a dice game.

There is, however, definitely a chance (probably a little under 10%) that you will be gammoned.


and yes, i agree 3&6 is better if you don't need to get out right away.

frolind: because the 3 is lower or because the 6 is higher ?
(than the 4 or 5 :))

or for another reason ?

(remember you are dealing with a blonde one on this side ;))

Hrqls: 3&6 is slightly better.

frolind: i like confusions .. makes me think :)

is 3&6 better or 4&5 when you might have more than 1 chance ?

Hrqls: Yes, you are correct. I was only thinking of when you have to get off in the next roll. If you have more than one chance, then 5&4 is not as good as 6&3. Sorry for the confusion. :)

grenv: i am not sure if i would have been gammoned .. i had most of my pieces in my home .. i would have probably escaped when he opened his 5 and 6 position .. leaving me with an average number of about 5 or 6 rolls to bear 1 piece off

but there was still a chance

i wouldnt have doubled yet in his position .. as it would have wanted to see if i could be lucky for a gammon .. and i would not .. then i would double a bit later anyway

Hrqls: This was not a tough decision: Drop. If you accept you will probably lose and may get gammoned. I'd say if you played 10 games you would win once, be gammoned once and lose without being gammoned 8x.

In fact I wouldn't have doubled if I were your opponent and played for the gammon, I think his position was too good for a double.

grenv: *nod* i looked at the dice
3&6 bear off with: 3+3,6 & 4+4,6 & 5+5,6 & 6+3,4,5,6
4&5 bear off with: 3+3 & 4+4,5,6 & 5+4,5,6 & 6+4,5,6

both have 10 rolls to bear off (out of 36 possible rolls)

but! there might be a difference with the left over in case one isnt able to bear off .. for example one rolls 1+2 .. then the position 3&6 will bear off the 3 piece leaving a single 6 piece .. where the 4&5 position cant bear any pieces off leaving 2 pieces on the board closer to the finish

so 3&6 might be better in case one doesnt bear off at the first roll ... but i am not sure about this one

any thoughts ? ;)

Hrqls:

3&6: 27.8% chance of going out
4&5: 27.8% chance of going out

They are the same.

Not always the case. For instance let's say you have 7 pips left:

2&5: 52.8%
3&4: 47.2%
1&6: 41.7%

So 2&5 is much better.

another cube action which i found rather tough .. i declined because accepting would make it a 4 point game in a 5 point match ... creating a crawford game if i would lose without being gammoned .. i didnt like that and think my chances are better by me needing 5 points and my opponent only 3

any thoughts ?

frolind: i went with 3 & 6 because somehow 6 seems more powerful to me .. but i wrote it out to be sure and it made no difference :)
what simple rule do you use ? (if i dare ask ;))

(btw i lost the game because my opponent rolled double 4 for his last 3 pieces :))

Hrqls: I would have gone with 3&6, but that's just because I follow a simple rule to avoid memorizing or counting these positions. 4&5 is equally good.

would you rather have your last 2 pieces at 4 & 5 or at 3 & 6 ?

each option has 10 out of 36 rolls to finish .. but which is the best ?

(btw it happened to me in a game, but i made the move already .. i went with 3 & 6)

pentejr: lol :) i will update the list next year i guess :) get working!

pentejr: *nod* i am playing crowded with him now .. and told him about it ... he will soon be in the top with crowded as well (only needed 3 more games last night) and only needed 6 more games of anti (which takes a bit longer though :))

i know of the aversion of some players against anti ... its a great game though .. requires some different tactics and tricks ... but fun ones .. the disadvantage is the high number of moves thats needed to finish a game though
(with the cube it can be done faster ... but not always ;))

i will try to make a similar list without anti somewhere next week .. i am not sure if i will have time though

a better list would be to put everyone on it who is in the top 10% (or another %) of the list .. as there are a lot more people on the backgammon rankings than on the other types :)

i see the types as 4 groups :
back & nack
race & crowded
hyper
anti

grenv: I absolutely suck at anti, but now I might get established just so Hrqls has to put me on the list! There are so few people rated in anti that my provisional rating of 1589(!), were I to hold it until it became established, would still land me well in the top 100.

playBunny: *nod* thanks :) looking better ... (although not perfect yet! ;))

grenv: Aye, I'll never play Anti.

pentejr: I'll never be on that list. I hate anti backgammon. How about just back, nack and hyper?

playBunny: Marfitalu will soon join that list. He(?) is in the top 30 in every backgammon variant, but he does not yet have an established rating in crowded and anti.

Hrqls: Here's a favour:


frolind: ________4,  16,  _7,  34,  _3,  42,  17.67
Hrqls: _________33,  12,  18,  19,  _8,  17,  17.83
basplund: _______8,  15,  _5,  _6,  38,  17,  20.00
Arpa: __________7,  89,  22,  _1,  _1,  _4,  20.67
Zach: _________21,  60,  20,  32,  24,  36,  32.17
whikki: _______48,  33,  31,  49,  41,  25,  37.83
lovelysharon: __69,  52,  21,  29,  53,  20,  40.67
incognito: _____42,  19,  _9,  36,  87,  90,  47.17
TC: ___________87,  29,  48,  _4,  17,  98,  47.17

the list of the bkrs


frolind: _______2308,  1920,  1969,  1896,  2016,  2111,  2036.67
Arpa: _________2248,  1760,  1842,  2048,  2102,  2192,  2032.00
basplund: _____2248,  1929,  2012,  1958,  1815,  2106,  2011.33
Hrqls: ________2186,  1937,  1868,  1930,  1909,  2148,  1996.33
incognito: ____2177,  1917,  1963,  1890,  1727,  2077,  1958.50
Zach: ________2202,  1801,  1854,  1909,  1862,  2117,  1957.50
lovelysharon: _2158,  1817,  1846,  1911,  1783,  2140,  1942.50
whikki: ______2174,  1858,  1729,  1847,  1811,  2136,  1925.83
TC: __________2149,  1840,  1517,  1979,  1877,  2073,  1905.83

Hrqls: The workaround is to use underscores. (Dots don't work as they aren't a full character width).

Ideally you should be able to use   to get additional spaces but there's a bug in the message code which (unpredictably) ruins the layout of anything long so   is only useful when inserting a couple of additional spaces.

here is a list of players who are in the top 100 of all 6 gammon types on this site
(most players not on this list miss an established rating in antibackgammon or are outside the top 100 of backgammon or hypergammon (as those types have the most ranked players i guess)

i will see if i can make a similar list without antibackgammon sometime next week :)

anyway .. here it is .. the column order is: backgammon,nackgammon,antibackgammon,race backgammon,crowded backgammon,hyper backgammon,average

the list of the rankings

• frolind: 4,16, 7,34, 3,42,17.67
  
• Hrqls: 33,12,18,19, 8,17,17.83
  
• basplund: 8,15, 5, 6,38,17,20.00
  
• Arpa: 7,89,22, 1, 1, 4,20.67
  
• Zach: 21,60,20,32,24,36,32.17
  
• whikki: 48,33,31,49,41,25,37.83
  
• lovelysharon: 69,52,21,29,53,20,40.67
  
• incognito: 42,19, 9,36,87,90,47.17
  
• TC: 87,29,48, 4,17,98,47.17
  

the list of the bkrs

• frolind: 2308,1920,1969,1896,2016,2111,2036.67
  
• Arpa: 2248,1760,1842,2048,2102,2192,2032.00
  
• basplund: 2248,1929,2012,1958,1815,2106,2011.33
  
• Hrqls: 2186,1937,1868,1930,1909,2148,1996.33
  
• incognito: 2177,1917,1963,1890,1727,2077,1958.50
  
• Zach: 2202,1801,1854,1909,1862,2117,1957.50
  
• lovelysharon: 2158,1817,1846,1911,1783,2140,1942.50
  
• whikki: 2174,1858,1729,1847,1811,2136,1925.83
  
• TC: 2149,1840,1517,1979,1877,2073,1905.83
  
  
  
  (i hope this will lineup a bit ;) .. i guess it didnt :( .. i wish i could make a table or use another font :))

WhiteTower: You're not far wrong ;-)

... or even anti-backgammon :)

alanback: "sponsoring anti-backgammon tournaments"... sounds like sponsoring terrorism to people who hate anti-backgammob :)

On winning the first and only anti-backgammon tournament sponsored by me :-)