in Chicago

<Hmm.. GPEMTNSU, please. ;> (Gets paid even more to never show up)

Have we got any users on BrainKing that use an NTL connection here in the UK. If so could you contact myself or rod03801 please.

MM

*keeping eyes peeled, just been told that someone is going to copy our database and take it with them*

Well i didn't know where to post this question, so forgive me if this is off topic.
I want to ask for the complete method for calculating the BKR in the games of Chess, Gothic Chess and Backgammon. I know that it's the same with that of the US Chess Federation formula, but calculating it this way, the results are not the same. So something must be different. Can a knowledgeable (Fencer or anyone else...) person solve my question?

Thanks.

I posed the very same question on more than one occasion. As I worked with Mark Glickman on a few projects, and he created the most-recent version of the system for the United States Chess Federation, I assured Fencer his rating calculations were not correct.

The BKR for the provisional period is off by orders of magnitude. The handling of draws is also incorrect.

Fencer uses the "parallel" Glicko calculation for
"many results" being rated at the same time during the provisional period, and Mark Glickman later retracted this method.

If you are interested in a high BKR, all you have to do is win a few games against strong opponents during your provision BKR stage, then just gets draws once you have 25+ games. Your rating will never go down.

This is not the way the rest of the world operates.

Lower rated players will gain points when drawing a higher rated opponent, and the higher rated player would lose points if drawing a lower rated one.

I have not seen an example of that here.

"Lower rated players will gain points when drawing a higher rated opponent, and the higher rated player would lose points if drawing a lower rated one. "

Ive had this happen to me , but it was when there was a very large gap between the oponent and myself, they were 800 or 900 and I was about 1000 higher at least

I lost about 50bkr

Taken from the FAQ page...

Although I had finished a game, my BKR did not change! Is that an error?
No, this is not an error. There are several situations which can be a reason of that:

Both players did not perform at least two moves. It can happen when one player loses the game by a timeout at the very beginning.
You won a game with an opponent whose BKR is significantly smaller than yours. If we would apply the formula exactly, your BKR would have to drop. But BrainKing.com uses the rule that your BKR cannot drop after you win the game, therefore it remains unchanged. The similar rule applies if you lose a game with an opponent whose BKR is significantly higher than yours.
The game have been defined as "unrated game". Such game is not calculated for BKR.
The game is a part of a match which is not finished yet. The match is treated as a single game which consists of several sub-games. The statistics (number of won, drawn and lost games) and BKR of both players is changed after the whole match is finished and the result is based on the match result itself, not on the results of its sub-games.

Fencer wanted to avoid a situation where very high rated players were afraid to play low rated players in case their rating dropped drastically (in the event of the lower rated person winning).

every site i play on all has differnt ways of doing the ratings , some based on bkr or just a winning percentage , one i like is if you win you can get a maximum of 16 points for a win , or 16 points(maximum) taken away for a loss , all depends on the opponents rating as to how much taken away or gained . (this could be simmilar to here not sure never managed to work it out here ,).
i think what Chessmaster1000 wanted to know was that if the same method was used for all types of games on here .

From Jason: "I think what Chessmaster1000 wanted to know was that if the same method was used for all types of games on here ."

Yes this AND what is the method for the calculations....

...I was refering to was a checkers game I had with CaOz. I was about 2200 at the time, he was 2400+, the game was a draw, and no points were exchanged.

There should have been a +12 gain for me and a loss of 12 points for him given a 200 point disparity in ratings.

Recall a 400 point difference means the higher rated player would win a very, very large percentage of your contested games.

one thing I have definately noticed with the ratings system is that it definately discourages the high BKR's to NOT play against the lower ratings as they have little or nothing to gain and much to lose. Consequently, when they set up a game in the waiting room, they will set the required rating so high that the lower ratings wont even see the waiting games and cannot join.
Although this is fine, these people come unstuck when they play in tourneys and have no control who they play.

I do however find it interesting why someone who is a known (by admission) program user would start questioning ratings systems etc. Maybe it would be fairer to have Fencer reset your BKR Chessmaster so that you can start out playing fairly all the time.
Do you still use programs?

Why would it discourage any higher rated player if they are good at a game, UNLESS as has happened before when the 'KM crowd' were about they like to play against themselves (still here just a different name now).
Most normal game players on this site would not worry about it, to them a game is a challenge.
Sadly, to some it is not - its a cheat !!

I agree, I dont mind playing lower BKR's to myself, but some do.
I was simply pointing out a fact. Some higher BKR's do in fact avoid playing lower BKR's for this reason.

I agree with that MM. I don't so much worry about the lower rated players in backgammon. I prefer playing higher rated players because they typically offer a more challenging game but I play in lots of tourneys and play on both sides of the curve.

in his post below. I thought it was clear that those types of posts were to be avoided. Even if what ML stated about cheating is true, it's not germane to the BKR discussion.

The moderator here is perfectly capable of deciding for herself what will be allowed without unsolicited expert guidance.

I think it is sad if the higher BKR's avoid playing lower BKR's simply for the ratings. How did they get that rating in the first place? And how are the lower BKR's ever to increase their ratings? I myself am a lower BKR and sometimes feel ignored on this site even though I have played here for a long time and paid the same membership fees as everyone else. If the site is to grow, we need everybody regardless of rating. I thought they were games for fun anyway!
Please accept my apology for expressing my opinion and I don't mean it toward anyone in particular!

There are alot of players on this site who play games for fun and enjoyment. I personally don't pay a bit of attention if someone has a higher rating than I do. Luck along with skill goes hand in hand with game playing! A lower rated player can also learn alot by playing a higher rated player....DON"T let the BKR"S get in your way!

I agree 100% Dolittle and SOD, why all this "noise" about rating, especially in backgammon where the dices decide who will win. I checked the tournament list, a player has a tournament for players 2000+..then i checked my stats with that player...we have played 20 games i have won 11 games against him and he has won 9. But i cant play in his tournament because my rating is
below what is needed for his "elite tournament" LOL

Thanks for noting correctly that I am an expert offering that guidance Purple. I duly note that you are a master of the art of cozening. Which makes it all the less surprising that you don't let the moderator speak for herself in both situations. I suggest we leave it here and let harley decide for herself.

I suggest this will be done with or without your blessing. It must be frustrating that so few people require your approval to live their lives.

Thanks SOD and Andersp! I don't pay much attention to the BKR's myself. I just love to play and meet nice folks..sometimes I get lucky and win a game too! :)

thing in here. And y I say this is look at Backgammon Race the #1 person (was going to put name but changed my mind) has played 25 game all against the same person and most of those game after 3 or 4 move where forfieted. To me this is wrong that a person would do something like this just to put a rating so high that there is noway for a person to get them. Well back to my corner I go and hope this does not upset anyone but, just that people should know what does go on.
:o{P``````

if that is the case it should be investigated by the powers that be - Fencer, MrLoup :)
That person could be playing against himself, or a junior member of his family.
It is a pity that the BKR are not available on our main page anylonger...

It will be back soon. Final tests on BK 2.0 are passed. After a new tournament generator is done, it will be launched.

thanks :)

I've just removed that user from charts. It's not the first case but it can be easily detected and resolved. I am currently working on a new way of automatic handling of such situations.

TYVM Fencer for being fare to us that would like to make it to #1 someday or at least try too.

<>I do however find it interesting why someone who >is a known (by admission) program user would >start questioning ratings systems etc. Maybe it >would be fairer to have Fencer reset your BKR >Chessmaster so that you can start out playing >fairly all the time.
>Do you still use programs?

Well i want to know about BKR formula because i'm a curious man and i like mathematical formulas anyway.
Also (and this is interesting) i had two games at Backgammon with one person. The one was lost and the other was won and both of them was one move(by me) before the end. So which one i had to play first. The one i'm losing so my BKR would drop and his will increase, so that i would have bigger difference from him and when i win the other i would have a higher BKR than that i had at the beggining? Or the opposite? Or it doesn't matter? I will search a bit about this. NO i'm not a BKR-addicted, i just doing this because i like to play with numbers and mathematics.


As for cheating: I play here and generally Chess, Gothic Chess, Backgammon, Maharajah Chess and Reversi 8x8. While i find the first 4 easy to play with a human logic, i find Reversi 8x8 a very crazy-complicated game in which no clear plan you can make to play it correctly. I know some rules about mobility(to have less pieces at the middlegame is good), some patterns in the corners and many opening moves, but yet all these doesn't make me feel comfortable with the game and if i look into one position i'm not so sure who is better. I have written a program (still on beta stage) and it's rather strong although it plays with reduce force, and i've used it to play Reversi 8x8 here (Not all moves by it - mainly most moves was mine but when i thought i had troubles and i didn't know what to do i used it).
BUT i thought ALL other people here who play Reversi 8x8, are doing the same thing as the game is too crazy to play it alone. After one game with someone i admitted that i used my program, after he asked me if i used Zebra, thinking that telling him it is not something bad. Now that i know almost all people don't use a program to play i've stopped playing Reversi 8x8 and the 3 games i have running right now, i play them by myself. (There was one clever person who chalenged me at Reversi8x8 and used a program(i think) to test if i still use my program after the noise at Reversi boards for me and at the beggining i played alone but because his behaviour was hypocritical and he thought i didn't understand him, i used it again to see his reaction....)

Anyway as in 80% of my Reversi 8x8 games i used my program, i believe it's fair all my Reversi 8x8 games to be deleted because my BKR and wins record is not something which represent my Reversi 8x8 skills. Do you think that someone who wanted to cheat would admit after the game and now that he was using a program and all his games to be deleted at Reversi 8x8? I hate cheating and that was the reason i stopped playing at Yahoo games, Chess (From 2001 and after i always lose).

For other games i play, i don't use a program to play as in Gothic Chess there is only one program which plays G.C that had stopped working in my PC but the main reason is that even if it worked i don't find it fair to play with it, for Chess i could never use a program to play without my opponent know it, at Backgammon i don't need one obviously "I'm from Greece if you understand:)" and i'm an master at it and for Maharajah i solved this game so i don't need....
But generally all these games are understandable by me except Reversi 8x8, so i find it totally unfair to use a program to play them. I'm not someone who wants to win and his purpose of life is to win by any way. (My semi-purpose of life is some aliens to arrive at earth, see the solution of (Gothic)Chess, see the solution of 3N+1 problem, e.t.c..). I just want to play good games and have fun, although i don't like to lose of course. I find unfair to play with computer at Reversi 8x8 too, but i thought this is what is happening at this game due to it's complexity. Now i know this is not true i've stopped.
Someone asked me if i use Chessmaster for playing Chess. No i don't use it of course. I have this for my username as Chessmaster is my favourite program.

Forgive me i was not so detailed. I had to
write a few more things:):)

We all started out with zero as our BKR, and are where we are now because we played games and won, or lost.
I'm way addicted to Crowded backgammon, and I don't care who I play...I just want to play.
Which is why my BKR is like a YoYo...and isn't the playing of the game supposed to be the fun part of the game....not the rating?

It is true a stronger player has little to gain and much to lose by playing a much lower rated opponent. But there are two ways this applies. Some may want to protect their rating, but others want to protect their time! In chess I seek out players of similar strength to increase the odds of an intersting game.

As far as programs are concerned, can anyone suggest a Atomic Chess one so my BKR will get past 1000 one day :). RL, I agree, care for a game? DP, STFU, nobody wants to hear a word you got to say, go back to your hole in the ground and stay there.

Now about the BKR. Chessmaster made a good point. If you play two games against someone and win only one, your BKR will be different depending on if you lose first or win first.

Maybe some extra rules are needed to keep people from cheating (play same person or "dummy" accounts to improve ratings.)

Only ideas:

1) Only make tournament games count towards ratings. (Probable too drastic)

2) Have a limit of 1 game against the same player in 1 month time count towards BKR rating points. (So if I play (Player X) on May 15th, it will count towards the ratings. If I again play that same person on May 20th, then that would not count towards the ratings.

With BK2.0 hopefully it will be easier to sort out the players with multiple IDs being used to boost ratings. However one way to make it more time consuming for cheaters like this is to increase the minimum moves for a game to be a considered a rated game. I was thinking increasing it to like 10 moves per side. As always you can always scout your opponents profile. When investigating their gameplay you can see awkward things like many games against the same opponent and it is under 5 moves and then a timeout. I noticed this in a couple of people before and alerted Fencer and he gave them the boot.

....dont like either idea BBW

Of course the best way to catch player with phony second accounts is being able to track their IP address. Using this tracker too you can create a rule that the only way more than one account can from the same computer source is by having one account as a paying member. Also in situations where there appears to be a lot of timeouts against one person, you can close out the dummy account and then lower the legitimate player's account by 1000 BKR. This would discourage cheating.

Don't believe that. The same IP doesn't have to mean the same computer. For example, all employees of one company are shown with the same IP address because they share the same proxy server.
It will be much easier when IPv6 is widely adopted and used everywhere.

Ok, so we can add:

3) Raise minimum number of moves to be counted as a rated game.

4) Don't change nothing, and look at each case by hand when the need arises.

5) And punishment for anyone trying to cheat the system and other players here are to lower their BKR's to 1000 and make them start from a low account. (Or removed them completely from the BKR tables.)

IPv6 - Can't wait for that. Enough IP's that every pair of socks & underware in my house can have it's own IP address! <grin>

Point 5) has been already applied several times.

IP Address - Actually what should happen is when 2 players do connect from the same IP address, AND they do play each other, those names should be "flaged". Then possible when Fencer, or other Admin's have time - they should occasionally check to see that those games are truly being played, and not an excess of games (just to boost ratings) are happening.

Ok Fencer then how will the new BK2.0 be able to catch cheaters with multiple accounts then? I guess I dont how you will be able to do this the automated way as you suggested previously. I think however it is not unreasonable if you have a household where everyone plays at the site, to have one account as a paying member. The ideas here are to increase membership and reduce the incidents of cheating players. There is no full proof way of geting rid of cheating but at least try to keep it to a minimum. OF course we are all watchdogs. I routinely check out my opponents previous game records as a way to scout them, particularly new players I havent played before. That is how you catch the cheaters. Fencer has shown to me in the past to take swift action when it proved to him that cheating is going on. I commend him on his actions and commitment along with Liquid to improve the site for us now and those future players that will join the site.

It's already implemented. I can see on each Profile page all IP addresses that had been used with the account and a list of possible "clones".

Brian: There are other possibilities but I cannot reveal them, otherwise cheaters could bypass them much easier :-)

"or other Admin's have time"

I thought only Fencer or Liquid could be included in this? Or is there something we dont know?

Socks in our house don't come in pairs ... they go into the washing machine together but by the time the dryer is finished with them its all over red rover (Bernice ... here's another one). Just doubled your ip count BBW!

I just saw Fencer look at this and as expected, my question wasnt answered :o( Why do you ignore me now Fencer unless its giving me hints to leave?

Don't be paranoid Stevie, you are not the only one who asks me questions. There are no other admins on BK, of course.

Thanks, well that will make BK a little more bearable then