Artful Dodger: Just don't kill frogs. Thats baaaaaaaad.

joshi tm:  It's a bad rule of the game.  You basically lose on the first move.   Game over.  Not only are you ten points behind, but you can only get 15 points total.  Statistically, you can't win this game.  When a rule such as this one creates such a huge inbalance, something is wrong with the rule.

Artful Dodger: But think about the poor frogs...... who would want to shoot and kill any of those cute poor frogs??????

But seriously, it is a lot of points and does make it harder to win if you shoot a frog - But I've done it before - and have had it done to me also.... and at the same time, you now have less frogs to find (only 4 left).

I have also wondered if the 13x13 board with a 0 in the middle like in Frog Legs would be a good idea in Frog Finder also - always giving a person a place to start.

..... but I can't ignore the fact of how even the win/loss is for each player (50.2% vs. 49.6%) - so going first may give you an advantage of getting an extra chance to shoot/guess - but possible with the disadvantage of the bad chance of shooting a frog evens everything out.

What some had done (and myself at times also) - in your FIRST SHOT - Don't shoot, but guess in a spot. (you will lose 3 points - but that is a lot less then 10 points... and will give you a place to shoot next time with no fear of hitting a frog) Just an idea - not sure if it is the best strategy, but I guess is a good one to get away from not shooting a frog at the move.

coan.net:  But wouldn't it be better overall just to lose 5 points instead of 10?  It's still gives the other an advantage (in points).  Then, with a -5, you need to find the other 4 and you'd still only get 20 points.  The other person has to find the same number, just 4, and will tie at worst.  Seems more fair.  Otherwise, when I lose 10 points to start the game is all but over.  Sure, you could win, but it's so unlikely statistically.  I think we ought to consider just making it a loss of 5 points.  Keeps ya in the game and evens the odds a bit.  Keep in mind that the opponent still has an advantage, but it's not so huge as it is now.

Artful Dodger: Also don't forget you get bonus points for winning & bonus points for the number of frogs not found. (not a lot - but can make a difference if people make bad guesses.... and if I'm down a frog, I make more guesses in the chance of making up for the dead frog)

But yes, I do understand what you are saying - but I think any less then what is there would then make it easier for player 1 to win (since they could get an extra move per game) and start to make the game less balanced then it currently is.

coan.net: What some had done (and myself at times also) - in your FIRST SHOT - Don't shoot, but guess in a spot. (you will lose 3 points - but that is a lot less then 10 points... and will give you a place to shoot next time with no fear of hitting a frog)

Guessing on your first move is bad. The chance is the first guess/shot hitting a frog is such that on average you lose more points by guessing than shooting. And if you guess wrong, you will NOT have a "safe" shot the next time; assuming your opponent isn't totally stupid, it's your opponent who has a safe shot. And if you are unlucky, your first guess will be next to a frog; not only giving your opponent a three point advantage, your opponent will have a safe place to shoot, you still will not have a safe place (as your opponent shooting on the place you guessed will reveal a number larger than 0).

AbigailII: I don't think I have ever played a player who helped revel where their own frogs were... well at least players who knows how to play.

coan.net:
but I can't ignore the fact of how even the win/loss is for each player (50.2% vs. 49.6%)


the majority of games are played where the first player doesn't land on his own frog.   This would account for the even stats above.  When both players are able to get a "0" square, the game is relatively even.  Even when I've guessed wrong later in the game and lost 3 points, I can still win.  The game is still "on."

But, if you were to consider the stats of ONLY those games where player 1 is -5 points with 4 frogs to find, and player 2 is +5 points with 5 frogs to find, I'll guess that the stats are 20% or less for player 1 to win.  Maybe even 10%. 

Player 1 MUST find all remaining frogs (that's all 4 must be found) and will only achieve 15 points.  Player 2 only needs to find 2 frogs to achieve a tie. 

IF you had designed the game where player one started the game with a -5 but only had 4 frogs to find while player 2 had a +5 with 5 frogs to find, which side would you choose?

Maybe someone with a math background could provide the winning stats in a game like that.  I'm not a math wiz.  But once player 1 has shot his/her own frog, the game is no longer 50 50.  It's probably more like 10-90.   (I'm guessing here)

The game would be much more even if the very middle square was already a zero.  Or even a random square at zero.   Or even under the current rules, change the -10 points to just a -5.   At least look into the statistics of that type of position.  Even with a -5, the game still favors player 2.  (because with 4 frogs to find player 1 still can only get 15 points while player 2 only needs to find 3 to get that 15).