Bernice: lol

Bwild: On October 3, 2002, PayPal became a wholly owned subsidiary of eBay.<sup>2

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PayPal</sup>

Bwild: ask Jules, he knows everything

isnt paypal owned by ebay now?

Czuch:  The current crisis in the US AND the UK is a direct result of the wonderful government taking care of things.    We wouldn't be in this mess but for the government (dems and repubs).   That's a fact jack.

(V): Well, on the BK board you made it sound like you thought the free market would take care of companies like Paypal... now you sound like you are advocating for the government to step in?

..and I have never advocated for no government "oar" in the water....

I guess the point I would make to you is that the problem i see most is who gets to decide???

You obviously can see how the free market will weed out the bad companies from the good ones, without the need for the government to make extra regulations, right?

and I can agree that there are obviously regulations that the government can impose that will help...


But if we get too far in your direction, and you expect the government to fix things against the free market doing so, then I ask you, where is the line drawn anyway??? Who gets to decide when the free market weeds out the good from the bad, and when the government does it for us? Thats the slippery slope I dont want to get into personally..

Czuch: Because not everyone does something, and some companies (like paypal) can make it difficult to sort out matters. In our case, I had to look on the internet for a number I was told did not exist... ie the companies complaints dept number. I was told by all their customer care people I could not call them and would have to just communicate by mail.

They lied.

That's why we need governments to regulate and make laws to protect consumers. In the end paypal might be kicking itself in the bum, but it may take years before things change.

EG.... Our government and the expenses policy which has been going on since the Thatcher days and nobody has within the organisation has spoken up till recently.

Same with your medical system, the health companies are pretty much a law onto themselves... you lobbyist system is lining pockets, etc, etc .... and we have had more over here.

You want a totally free market with no government sticking it's oar in.... Then expect similar with every company. And I'd forget about taking medicines as no-one will be there to stop them marketing and selling rubbish.

Our 'free' market now is costing people lives.. Have you seen how people in India recycle computers? How sweat shops look?? How people earn peanuts, yet we get charged 1000 times more???

A shop I worked for sold one item for 99p some 15 years back... It cost them 6p even with being imported from India... how much do you think the workers earned per item?

(V): Propaganda can do that. That's the problem with the media, Vikings mentioned problems it causes our days. Germany for instance: Best for certain politicians there would be that in 2010 there is no journalism left to analyse the "Agenda 2010".

Czuch: No, it is not possible. It's a position where all sides can generally get along better from. The majority are not always right, that's why we have the terms we do now to describe various public moods and ideals. You just can't redefine a word to suit your argument.

Czuch: Alright czuch ;), let's bother the Germans once again. Are german socialdemocrats the like of Schröder, Eichel etc. totally nuts? Problem with not reelecting politicians is that they fade out of responsability. All that remains is lynching. I don't know if that's an option for Germans.

Czuch: Germans who didn't agree with Hitler. Extremists?

(V): Anarchy is anarchy... but it all depends on what the majority believes before you can tell me how extreme is described.

Its possible that moderate is an extreme position, no?

Czuch: No, anarchy would still be anarchy. And moderates would still be moderates.

I thought a social democracy would be a pure communist state, not a fake Stalin type.

You can protect people from fraud. Or do you consider it right for people to be taken for a ride?

(V): Your country was founded on the idea to protect it's citizens from all enemies.. Foreign and Domestic.


I agree with government that protects us, but I just dont think that printing money and borrowing money and taking over banks and cars etc is really protecting us right now, it may seem that way, and actually work for a short time, but in 10 20 years, we will be worse off for it... you cannot protect people from themselves, the free market is not an enemy, its meant to have cycles, and you cannot and should not protect us from those cycles, or you no longer have a free market...

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Czuch

(V): The UK is a mixed economy, part capitalist and part social.


Thats not a social democracy?

(V): I supported the Bush administration when they acted like a conservative, and I still support our taking out Saddam.... but there was a time when Bush was a liberal, and I did not support him much of those times

(V): moderation is extremism..... one word. No.

If 99% of the population wanted anarchy, then your 1% stance would have to be considered extreme...

(V): first, you will never see any uncontrolled collapse of the US economy

Czuch: moderation is extremism..... one word. No.

The UK is a mixed economy, part capitalist and part social.

You liked the Bush admin, but want this government out of your way..... Ok.
You want the government to stay out of the way, but are you prepared to accept an unregulated market? So you don't think the recent things like the Intel corp rigging the market so companies only used their chips instead of AMD is an acceptable thing?

You think conclusion between companies to effectively rig prices is a good thing?
Your country was founded on the idea to protect it's citizens from all enemies.. Foreign and Domestic.

What is a depression in relation to it's effect on the American economy? What is a world wide depression in respect to America's economy?

.... And an uncontrolled collapse of the American economy would have what results?

(V): It's the Government serve the people, and how best to do it.


Right... and some say the best way for the government to serve the people is to stay the hell out of our way.

...and others who want the government to do everything for us.

You may think it is somehow a "non party" or "moderate" position to be somewhere in the middle of those two extremes, but the reality is that a middle stance is still as much of a stance as one on either end.

BTW... if in a democracy we elect our representatives, who are supposed to represent the will of the people... what if the will of the people is for one of your so called "extreme views"? Then wouldnt the "middle ground" actually be an "extreme" view?

(V): What do you consider the UK then, if not a social democracy?

(V): My point and question is.... isnt moderation a form of its own extremism?

Czuch: Free market.. since when has there been a free market? As for a true social democracy.... .... I there one?

No Czuch.. It's the Government serve the people, and how best to do it.

And yes.. most are moderates and go the middle ground. Extremism is never good.

Point is.... we are most of us already running in the middle between these two points, arent we?

Czuch: Some people feel like they want the government to do as much as possible without becoming a dictatorship, and other believe they should do as little as possible without becoming anarchists...

Czuch: Let the government do as little as possible VS let the government do the most possible?

(V): I do that with my brother all the time....

Dont you see any real divide between free market capitalists and social democracies?

Czuch: But if you go "liberal this, liberal that" it's hardly going to bring the people back together as one as you have already divided the people in your own mind.

As I said, time to forget party, have a few beers and talk.

Czuch: I'd argue it as one who wants full democracy. An end to the "first past the post system" and to see that all parties have to work at a new bill. It's wanting an end to people seeing themselves as 'left and right', but as one people.

And yes, I can see both sides... The strange thing is, at the heart of it all.. everyone wants the same, just how is disagreed on.

(V): The tea parties arent really supposed to be about bringing the republican party back together....as much as it is to bring the American people back together, and back to our roots and what this country was founded as.... but I guess that is what the republican party is supposed to stand for anyway (or at least conservatism)

(V): But again, I'm a proportional representation advocate

Couldnt one argue that is what a moderate is, and that is no different, really, from either left or right?

You are as firmly in the middle as others are on the left and also the right, see what I am getting at?

Vikings: From what I see the 'tea party' side are moaning about public spending and trying to bring the Republican party back 'together'.... But as one guy who was invited to speak said... "Under Bush the same problem was happening, but where was the discontent back then?" (paraphrased). And that is what is being picked on. The guy was booed off stage btw.

Personally, I feel everyone has the right to hold political rallies, as long as they don't break the law. And yes... the Republican party does need to pull itself together and think about what it represents if it is to become a party again.

It's happened over here a few times when a party has lost it's touch and therefore weakened it's own image in the eyes of the people... which is bad for democracy.

But again, I'm a proportional representation advocate.

Czuch: Rubbish.... If I am 'Liberal' as you call it.. I'm for proportional representation. I don't like any party to have a overwhelming majority as this I feel is bad for democracy.

But also Czuch, to be honest there are many 'right' wingers who " are convinced that they are morally and intellectually superior to every other political point of view ".

This is the heart of the problem. Politicians have so split us into thinking it's 'A' or 'B' rather then 'A+B'.

You know over here. We as one nation are speaking out against our MP's, party allegiance has been forgotten. We as a nation recognise that the abuse over here of expenses has been going on for many years and no party has done anything to end it. Some MP's even tried to put a motion through Parliament exempting MP's from the Freedom of Information Act, which has been used to get MP's expenses published. And it wasn't just MP's from one party!!

Hopefully what is happening in the UK will start a domino effect around the globe in any democratic body who abuses public money, or uses politics to profit themselves.

(V): this is what the tea party is all about
http://www.freedomworks.org/publications/the-taxpayer-tea-party-movement-is-growing

but this is what is reported about them
http://www.usnews.com/blogs/robert-schlesinger/2009/04/15/sorry-tea-party-movement-polls-say-americans-dont-mind-taxes.html

http://www.bermanpost.com/2009/04/tax-day-tea-party-media-coverage.html

http://www.newsmax.com/brennan/tea_parties/2009/04/21/205534.html

(V): you have to forget party allegiance and all join together. One nation as one!!!


LOL... that is not possible over here, since liberals are convinced that they are morally and intellectually superior to every other political point of view, free speech to them is anyone that agrees with their point of view

Vikings: Tea party? Not heard of it... got a link?

As for the media... over here most of the TV News companies are independent, it's when it comes to the papers that there is bias. But at the moment all the media is broadcasting or printing the people of the UK disgust at our MP's.

That this has been going on for years makes it even worse for them. That they are saying "it was within the rules" or "I made a mistake" just proves they are morally corrupt or stupid.. or both!!

But if you want to stop the rubbish in your government, as I said to Art... you have to forget party allegiance and all join together. One nation as one!!!

(V): there is an ongoing attempt to do that, the problem is that the drive by media is in the pockets of the politicians (left wing), remember the tea party's a month ago? It was target against progressiveness of the political institution but the media twisted it into an anti left right wing nut job conspiracy by a few gun toting vet's

Imagine a world in which the transport business would ask a profi margin of 10 pc. Who is making your coffee drink in the morning? I know the funny perspective but after 3 month this world would be over.

How often do you need a banker? Once a year? I don't understand the hektic of todays banking. There is no connection between the finance sector and the real economy. Even if you need a credit from a bank you are, let me express it that way, a low-lifer. I have more respect of the service of the windowcleaner as the coke turbo banker himself.

I had good reasons to x the UBS. I imp and exported with the Apartheit. I know what I been talking about.

Czuch: yes, them MP's are not about make it a better place, that's gambling for their own pc's.

Czuch: Well then, you need over there as over here. All your people to drop 'party' and get together as a nation and start complaining. Make yer politicians afraid of Americans.

Because at the moment the police and CPS are looking into these expense claims, and if they feel there is a case.. they will be prosecuting those MP's who have abused the expenses system.

And the claim "it was within the rules" will be no defence.

And the other claim by some "I didn't understand what I was doing" is not exactly gonna stand up in court either!!

(V): And the way some are answering about their expenses.... they've made it so they won't get elected.


Thats one of the frustrating problems over here..... some are so influential, they dont get voted out no matter what, really.

Take a look at ted kennedy for example.... that guy has been through so many scandals over the years, even drove a woman off a bridge while drunk, and left her to drown, and because of his influence and power, he keeps getting voted back in anyway

...and many more like him too, there has got to be some way to keep them from becoming power hungry , look out for number one types, once they get in there?

Czuch: Not all, there are some mentioned who claimed very little or nothing at all. Thank God we still do have some honest politicians.

And this year I believe there are elections this year (or next) and they are all up for re-election.

And the way some are answering about their expenses.... they've made it so they won't get elected.

.... I hope the private prosecutions go ahead!! Or Gordon Brown gets it through his thick head that the only way to clean up this mess so we trust our MP's again and our democracy is to prosecute all those who took advantage of a lax system.