"We also have to work, though, sort of the dark side, if you will. We've got to spend time in the shadows in the intelligence world. A lot of what needs to be done here will have to be done quietly, without any discussion, using sources and methods that are available to our intelligence agencies, if we're going to be successful. That's the world these folks operate in, and so it's going to be vital for us to use any means at our disposal, basically, to achieve our objective."
--VP Dick Cheney to Tim Russert on 9/16/01

Bwild: Or.... " a people should not be afraid of it's government, the government should be afraid of it's people."

(V):I like Franklins version better        politics is to wolves telling a sheep what to do....liberty is a well armed sheep,willing to negotiate....

Bwild: Because some things never change, or slowly. We've still not beaten the corruption problem within our governments, hence the quote.

... It's just an example.

Likewise.. Another quote. "Democracy is not perfect, but it's the best system of government so far."

(V):but how does a quote from the bible, lend any true weight to your arguement?

Czuch: Nope.. you don't. But you need to be able to touch your spiritual side through whichever system or way you find good for you.

Zen is good, Buddhism also

(V): You dont need God to be spiritual

If you are saying that there are those within religions who really have not studied the depth of religion and use it to justify their 'idols' rather then use it as a way to get to 'know' God.... not just to believe in God... but 'know'.

I agree. Yet that is not all religious people. Even pure atheists cannot not deny spiritual moments, as I have read from one pure atheist.

The Usurper: Figures.. I hear one guy had to resign his post in intelligence because he criticised Israel about the Palestinian situation.

I think he upset some Israeli supporters in America. awwwwwwwwww

Another link on the story from MinnPost:

Investigative reporter Seymour Hersh describes 'executive assassination ring'
http://www.minnpost.com/ericblackblog/2009/03/11/7310/investigative_reporter_seymour_hersh_describes_executive_assassination_ring


Seymour Hersh is a Pulitzer Prize winning reporter who writes now for The New Yorker magazine. During the Vietnam war, he exposed the My Lai massacre.

Cheney ran a secret death squad
03-11-2009 • Rawstory
Investigative reporter Seymour Hersh dropped a bombshell when he told an audience the military was running an "executive assassination ring" throughout the Bush years which reported directly to former Vice President Dick Cheney.

http://www.freedomsphoenix.com/Find-Freedom.htm?EdNo=001&At=047093

Bwild: I agree, and now lets play some cards, you owe me some money back

Czuch: It is just like the situation with the poor in America. The very best solution is to strip the government of all its power and then people will find ways to take care of themselves free from the oppressive influence of the Overlord, whose power is wedded to large corporations & banks for the purpose aggregating ownership & wealth into a few hands. The second best solution is for the enormous power of the government to be directed towards helping lives, not destroying & enslaving lives. But this seems to be impossible in our current situation...and perhaps always, since the nature of strong government is to rule with an iron fist.

"The power to tax is the power to destroy." (forget who said it, I think one of the chief justices, maybe Marshall)

(V): Okay, I admit we are not perfect, and I admit that our western way of life is not the answer for all, but for many people you have to start somewhere, and it is a long haul, so for many, they have to suffer today knowing that their suffering will only benefit the future... as a parent you would give up your own life for that of your child, and for some people, it will cost their life for a better life for their children or more accurately, their great grandchildren... boohoohoo, our forefathers suffered for what I have today, many Iraqis will suffer for what they will have tomorrow, at least their suffering now will lead to a better tomorrow and their suffering before was only treading water for them!

Bwild: Don't fit..... a crutch

Most of the ideas if applied with an empty cup rather then a full one do work. You see the text was written with many levels of revelation built in.

.... And I use the Bible as well as other good religious texts (eg from Zen, Hinduism, Judaism and even some old Egyptian texts. Good knowledge and wisdom never loses it's power or usability.

Czuch: When we have to feed them it's usually because of a dictator or war.. agreed. Many of these affected people have been after help in terms of someone to step in and bring order, but their cries have been ignored. By us westerners or their own local countries.

Some of the problems relate back to our loan system we use to have with many third world countries, some of the problems were from us trying to make them live like westerners, rather then live with the land and use it properly.

There is a lot to fix and it's not an overnight fix job.

my problem with using the bible for debate, is this....
1...the stories were first originated 2-4 THOUSAND years ago.
2...all stories have been re-written numerous times
3...though many idea's seem sound, the vast majority no longer fit in todays world
4...most bible quoters lack their own ideas and use the bible(in whatever version) as a crutch.

(V): But the fact that people need charities to step in and do things for them to make them more self reliant tells me that there is some underlying problem that should be dealt with first and foremost, and most of the time, that is the central governing body, and most of the time that is some sort of oppressing dictatorship, who hoard their countries riches for themselves, and let us feed their people instead!

Czuch: Then why are you bugged by the charities helping them become self reliant so we don't have to feed them?

(V): It bugs you that people are working to reverse those mistakes and to make these people self reliant?


No, it doesnt bug me.... but paying to feed someone isnt helping anyone become more self reliant... in fact it makes them less self reliant!

Bwild: And in the end the mother gave up the baby rather then see it harmed. A good way to see who the mother is as she would never allow harm to come to her child.

King Solomon said, "Bring me a sword!" So they brought a sword before the King. The King said, "Cut the living child in two, and give half to one and half to the other"

The woman (#2) turned to the King, because her compassion was aroused for her son, and said: "Please my Lord, give her the living child and do not kill it!"

But the other woman (#1) said: "Neither mine nor yours shall he be. Cut!"

The King spoke up and said: "Give her (#2) the living child, and do not kill it, for she is his mother!" All of Israel heard the judgment that the King had judged. They had great awe for the King, for they saw that the wisdom of God was within him to do justice. [I Melachim 3:16 - 27]. The woman was rightfully awarded custody of her son.

Czuch: Well, it is a fact that the Western world created & maintains the global apartheid system. You seem to be wanting to expand the debate. So there's a bit of history for you. You can research the details at your leisure, or else maybe just tune in to Fox News for the latest "truth implant." lol

Czuch: Czuch.. many mistakes were made in the past that have affected their quality of life. Many of those mistakes were made by the western world.

It bugs you that people are working to reverse those mistakes and to make these people self reliant?

There are also many newish orgs giving back by buying these countries produce at a fair price, and/or helping them establish a better standard of living. Eg "Fairtrade" and "Rainforest Alliance".

For many years these people have been exploited by companies by paying low rates for their produce. That is really starting to stop. At least over here it is.

(V):lets cut a baby in half in todays society and see how that flys in our judicial systems.

The Usurper: Trust me, your money isn't going to feed them, it is going to kill them & starve them. I don't suppose you'll ever figure that out.


oh... okay, so lets see... the US has been around a bit over 200 years... some of these countries we are talking about have been around for thousands.... but it is because of us that they live in huts and eat boogers and flys with their rice? They were all just thriving robust places to live for centuries until we came along and (BEEEEEEEP!) them all up

Bwild: --"they" say......this is exactly my point.--

That is a great point. Simple and neat, and it excuses you from thinking.

"You can fool some of the people all of the time and those are the ones you want to concentrate on."--George W. Bush

Bwild: They say because of things in the text and of records dating back to the era that it was written. King Solomon was well known for his wisdom and Israel reached it's pinnacle under his rule.

1 Kings 4:34 (NIV)
34 Men of all nations came to listen to Solomon’s wisdom, sent by all the kings of the world, who had heard of his wisdom.

Proverbs is said to be "the greatest "how-to" book ever written".

(V): Its the fact that you need the help of charities to give them a decent life that bugs me so much! The fact that you need help in the first place to give you a decent life, means to me that you dont really have a decent life at all....

Czuch: "I dont underestimate peoples ability to take care of themselves.. it is you who over estimates it..... if they are taking care of themselves so well, why do I have to feed them????"

Trust me, your money isn't going to feed them, it is going to kill them & starve them. I don't suppose you'll ever figure that out.

Czuch: And their are many organisations and charities helping them get to live a decent life. From schools and medicine to agriculture, fresh water wells and irrigation.

.... It's Red Nose day again soon over here.

The Usurper: I only support intervention when it is the alternative to us paying to feed their people!

I dont underestimate peoples ability to take care of themselves.. it is you who over estimates it..... if they are taking care of themselves so well, why do I have to feed them????

If they are doing so well for themselves, why are whole towns wiped out in mudslides ruining their straw huts?

(V):"they" say......this is exactly my point.

Czuch: "most would love to let Usurper eat boogers in a swap for our shoddy health care system"

I'm sure some would like to see me in a FEMA gulag. lol

(V): But you already have.. It's called the aftermath of GWII.


hahahaha... well at least i know what i am paying for then

(V): If people are fully informed of all the in and outs of your governments, and of the danger from gun crime that your country suffers from, that they might not get decent health care, get bombarded with more diabolical advertising. And possibly picked on because of their colour and religion!!


Dont you understand at all???? there are millions of people in this world who's biggest worries are weather to eat a booger or a fly with their piece of rice! We dont claim to be perfect, but we are doing it a lot better than most, and most would love to let Usurper eat boogers in a swap for our shoddy health care system

Czuch: "Take away all that from the equation, and we are on the same side again, for awhile anyway, i would not support our military intervention in any country that we were not responsible for anyway, or who have asked for our help specifically!"

Then we are in agreement, except in your underestimation of a people's ability to take care of themselves & prosper if left to themselves.

And since we are in agreement, why do you continue to support intervention?

Czuch: But you already have.. It's called the aftermath of GWII.

Czuch: Are you sure? And are you sure these 'million' are those you'd want living in your country?

If people are fully informed of all the in and outs of your governments, and of the danger from gun crime that your country suffers from, that they might not get decent health care, get bombarded with more diabolical advertising. And possibly picked on because of their colour and religion!!

Sure it will take ten minutes

The Usurper: it's the facts I point out,

Yeah, the same "facts" I can find on the lips of even the most mundane of liberals... thats what bores me

The Usurper: Given the choice of the first or the second options I would take the second one... what I am NOT willing to put up with is feeding them and sending them money when the mud huts they built bellow a muddy hillside get wiped out, and waste our time monitoring them to make sure they really arent making anymore weapons used to kill their own people.... if they can take my money they can take my telling them what to do as well, works with your kids, works with bank bailouts, why not with poor backwards countries as well?

Take away all that from the equation, and we are on the same side again, for awhile anyway, i would not support our military intervention in any country that we were not responsible for anyway, or who have asked for our help specifically!

Czuch: That sounds like the best solution to me. Leave them the hell alone. Of course, we owe them a couple trillion in restorations, but beyond that, they can take care of themselves.

It isn't my rhetoric that bores you, it's the facts I point out, which you don't find palatable.

The Usurper: Your rhetoric is getting boring again.... I can get stuff like that from any liberal hack...

Do you have a solution then??? Ive said it before, to me i can have it the other way, we dont try to help the Iraqis because in doing so we may damage someones life more than it is already damage, and we run the risk of killing him before he can starve to death naturally, and we dont send them money or any kind of support, except normal trade like with any country, and if they are (BEEP), then we dont have anything to do with them, and we wait for the day that the oppressed rise against their oppressors all on their own!

Czuch: "it is a huge web of elected officials"

Wise people call it the Matrix.

Czuch: "We are not the cause of their suffering, they were suffering all on their own before we went there, and what is so wrong with suffering anyway????"

Oh, I see....so when a bomb we drop blows up an Iraqi kid, we didn't cause his suffering....or the suffering of his parents, etc? Interesting....

And what is so bad about suffering? Hmmmm....let's see, mutilation of limbs, destruction organs....starvation & poison in the air...depleted uranium & defored babies....you know I guess you're right, those things aren't so bad after all. How could I be so foolish as to pity people for that!?

If I were an Iraqi today, I'd sure as heck want to trade places with me....anything to get away from the violence & poverty caused by the American war machine.

Nomad: well the US government are the town officials and the local representatives as well as those you claim... it is a huge web of elected officials

(V): Like I said once already, and I can say it again.... It would take less than 10 minutes to find a million Iraqis and Vietnamese and others around the globe who would drop their lives tomorrow to change places with Usurper Actions speak louder than words, your words ring hollow with me!

The Usurper: We are not the cause of their suffering, they were suffering all on their own before we went there, and what is so wrong with suffering anyway???? Have you never suffered so that things might be better for your children? Suffering is what we do today to make things easier tomorrow!

Well, you can rest easy then, because our government doesnt represent you and you dont represent an American citizen either!

Czuch: You use to be.. but your country's reputation has gotten tarnished. Many people have suffered as a result of certain depts of your 'government'... And many people have witnessed it.

Czuch: Just a side note to your comment "The US government is me and you and we" that you are speaking of is actually, One hundred senators, 435 congressmen, one president and nine Supreme Court justices - 545 human beings out of the 235 million. That are directly, legally, morally and individually responsible for the domestic problems that plague this country. Like them or hate them, they are the powers to be

Czuch: Sure, the poor peoples of the world want more material goods, and some of them want the relative freedoms we enjoy. But they don't want our oppression of them so that we can be so wealthy. And America is slipping...less freedom, less wealth for the average citizen.

The U.S. government may be YOU, but it certainly isn't ME. I claim no part of it, I didn't vote for it. It doesn't represent me.

If you are an ally of the Iraqi people, it is a strange allegiance that combines affection with indifference towards the suffering your government causes them.