The Usurper: A coule of things that dont seem right just doesnt cut it, really.

For your version of 9/11 to work, it must work in all facets and in all and every instance..... The whole thing must be a government plan, and try all you like, but it just will never hold up to scrutiny... and I know that is all you ask for, more official scrutiny, and subpoenas etc.... but you can have all that until the cows come home, and it will never go where you want it to go

The Usurper: "murder" is legal and acceptable if it is sanctioned by the government, in the form of a law, but you have zero proof that the US military ever specifically targeted civilians in Iraq!

The Usurper: Reminds me of a certain passage...

9 What does the worker gain from his toil? 10 I have seen the burden God has laid on men. 11 He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the hearts of men; yet they cannot fathom what God has done from beginning to end. 12 I know that there is nothing better for men than to be happy and do good while they live. 13 That everyone may eat and drink, and find satisfaction in all his toil—this is the gift of God. 14 I know that everything God does will endure forever; nothing can be added to it and nothing taken from it. God does it so that men will revere him.

15 Whatever is has already been,
and what will be has been before;
and God will call the past to account. [a]

16 And I saw something else under the sun:
In the place of judgment—wickedness was there,
in the place of justice—wickedness was there.

17 I thought in my heart,
"God will bring to judgment
both the righteous and the wicked,
for there will be a time for every activity,
a time for every deed."

18 I also thought, "As for men, God tests them so that they may see that they are like the animals. 19 Man's fate is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath [b] ; man has no advantage over the animal. Everything is meaningless. 20 All go to the same place; all come from dust, and to dust all return. 21 Who knows if the spirit of man rises upward and if the spirit of the animal [c] goes down into the earth?"

****************************
And from a certain thinker..

Battle not with monsters
lest ye become a monster
and if you gaze into the abyss
the abyss gazes into you.

The Usurper: I guess, one would want to know about our make up, I guess the real shock is that there is aliens to those they abduct. Plus I imagine that in the past they were a little shaky on what to drug us with so we wouldn't remember. As you said, they ain't killing anyone.

Considering our early years in medicine, and how we use to treat those with mental health issues... and other problems or 'phobias' (to put it nicely)... and still do in some areas of the world... We can't really comment much. But yes we can... we kill, they don't.

Seemingly at the mo, it's more 1st encounters then anything else. I think they want us to lift the lid off all the secrecy, even though it might be quite a shock.

(V): That's a good argument and may be correct, unless....they have other less-than-pleasant reasons NOT to make us dead.

Perhaps not likely, but a possibility. I suppose I am inclined to think, looking at the abduction phenomena, either a lot of people are hallucinating or it is really happening. And if the latter, the aliens don't seem too respectful of the rights of self-conscious beings, at least other than themselves.

Of course, if they aren't actually killing people they abduct, I guess that can be considered a plus. I sure hope you're right. lol

The Usurper: They have to be friendly, if they were not we'd be dead.

It speaks that a race in space has gotten over many of the infighting problems that young cultures such as us still experience.

Bernice: The UK government through it's military sanctioned the killing of IRA supporters and activists during the Northern Ireland war.

The British invented the concentration camp, during I believe the Boer war.

I find it interesting that in the past the USA considered waterboarding as a war crime and has prosecuted people (eg Yukio Asano, a Japanese officer from WWII).

In its 2005 Country Reports on Human Rights Practices, the U.S. Department of State formally recognized "submersion of the head in water" as torture in its examination of Tunisia's poor human rights record.

Today, the USA are supposed to have banned it's use by the military.... but no such rules cover the CIA!!!

Rather disgusting as you say.

(V): Maybe I didn't follow your conversation with Emma closely enough. I was assuming you were arguing the aliens would most likely be friendly types, and she was arguing the contrary. Did I miss the point? Up until the last few years, I believe I would have argued in favor of the aliens. Now I'm not so sure. lol

(V): The abyss they've fallen into is called The Bottomless Pit.

Of course no confession is valid if forced by these means. How could it be? Common sense tells us no confession gotten by these means can be trustworthy. And of course it has been against U.S. law since the founding of our Republic. Only under the Bush administration, and our fall into a bona fide dictatorship (for such we are), was such a thing even considered. A lot of people (the intelligent ones) are numb at the changes our country has undergone during the past 8 years.

The Usurper: Well if they have developed the tech for making anti-matter relatively cheaply... one bomb would do the job.

And when I say cheaply I say it because at our current level of tech it would bankrupt the USA to make one teaspoon full of the stuff.

The Usurper: Isn't it true that in certain cases that have gone up to court that when it has been shown sleep deprivation has been used to gain a 'confession' the case has been thrown out of court.

As for water boarding... "is a form of torture[1][2] consisting of immobilizing the victim on his or her back with the head inclined downwards, and then pouring water over the face and into the breathing passages. By forced suffocation and inhalation of water the subject experiences drowning and is caused to believe they are about to die."

I would have thought with all the drugs and lie detectors, etc to hand.. (maybe a psychic or two) that such old methods dating back to the Spanish Inquisition would no longer be needed or morally justifiable, especially as the effects of such torture can last years psychologically.

The effects (extreme pain, dry drowning, damage to lungs, brain damage from oxygen deprivation, other physical injuries including broken bones due to struggling against restraints)....... are ... well, if any gov thinks these are legal then they really need to look at how far in to the abyss they have fallen.

(V): Amen to that.

The Usurper: The CIA needs disbanding, I swear that they are half at least of the reasons many hate America. Their interference, underhand dirty deals and plain old interference with a country's and it's peoples right to find themselves.... examples are plentiful.

...government within government under no control is never a good idea.

Artful Dodger: They protect many rights, including those of Christians and other religious groups.

Artful Dodger: "I was referring to the 750,000 Iraqi civilians you say we murdered."

The way I see it is this. Bombs are intended to kill. When we knowingly drop them on civilian targets (and we do), we know we are killing civilians. I think that meets the definition of murder-with-intent.

Some might say, this is war. Sure it is. And death in war has several causes, including acts of self-defense, accidents, and even temporary insanity (like acts of rage, 2nd degree murder). But war doesn't change the fact that the pre-meditated killing of innocents is murder. In Iraq, as in Vietnam, as in Hiroshima, etc., it is mass murder, i.e., genocide.

You're right, I don't spend much time pointing the finger at the atrocities committed by other peoples and nations. My first responsibility, as I see it, is to point the finger at myself (i.e., the U.S.), before pointing it at others. And unfortunately, the U.S. commits many astounding atrocities.

I know the U.S.S.R. murdered millions. I know there are Muslims who murder people. I know about the Khmer Rouge, and many genocides the world over. Most, unfortunatedly, we don't use our power to try to stop. And in some cases, we've actually instigated them, by supplying arms, etc.

I know you want to focus on the one issue for now, and as I said, I completely understand that. But in answer to your point about calling the deaths of Iraqi civilians murder, I wanted to clarify my position.

Artful Dodger: Sleep well but may your dreams disturb you. That's a contradiction. lol

Nite :o)

The Usurper:  And with that, it's Spring Ahead so I'm no 1 hour late getting to bed.  You'll have to set me straight tomorrow!       

The Usurper:  If indeed the military called it a homicide, then that's murder.  I should have been more specific.  I was referring to the 750,000 Iraqi civilians you say we murdered.

Artful Dodger: Yes, it's the one with the woman talking. The internet is awesome. I mention the Veterans DVD site because there's no point in paying top dollar (or even discount price) for a particular DVD if you can get it for a buck.

I used "murder" because the released military autopsy reports stated cause of death as "homicide." The terms are synonymous, so for that reason I don't see my statement as propaganda; although, for emotional impact, I agree that "murder" is the stronger term. That is a rhetorical use of synonyms in order to, hopefully, cause readers to recognize the seriousness of the charge....i.e., to hit them in the gut, not just the head.

The Usurper:  Using words like "murder" isn't simply rhetoric, it's propaganda.  How about instead of saying murder, just give the details and let people conclude from there?  

The Usurper:  I've seen 911 mysteries if that's the one with the woman commentator.  Think I have the other one too.  I have about a dozen.  I love the INTERNET.  You can find anything on it. 

I mean specifically here:

http://www.v911t.org/21_DVDs_Truth.php

Brought to you by Veterans for 9/11 Truth (I'm a proud member) in our ongoing Operation Vigilant Truth.

Artful Dodger: "You also pack your posts with emotional wording that qualifies as propaganda."

What can I say? I can't deny it, I get emotional about these issues. :o)

A better word than "propaganda," though, might be "rhetoric." The first term means to indoctrinate by subterfuge, the second means to attempt to persuade by convincing argument (which might include emotional appeal).

Artful Dodger: "It is enough for me that I want to explore just ONE THING for now."

Sure, I can understand that.

A very good DVD specifically on the fall of the towers & wtc7 is "9/11 Mysteries." At One Dollar DVDs, you can get that and whatever else might interest you.

As for my sources for news.  They are multiple.  But let's look at Fox first.  I rarely miss The O'Reilly Factor.  But he's not "the news."  He raises awareness on issues and yes does some news analysis (so you do get some news).

I don't watch much else news wise on Fox (on a regular basis).  I don't have time to watch it all.  But when I can, I try to catch the hard news on Fox here and there.  Mostly it's just tidbits.

We also watch the mainstream media (cuz the wife wants to) and the local news (the majority source for us as far as cable goes).  Then there's the various blogs I read and favorite websites.  I peruse other sources too (The American Thinker; Dr Sanity; Heritage.org; Townhall;  and probably a few others (can't think of em at the moment).

Oh and I'm just getting into Glen Beck.  But he's on while I'm working so I have to watch what I've taped and usually don't have time for that either. 

While I'm not convinced that some mass conspiracy exists with regard to 911, but there are things that don't add up (on both sides).  In particular, they way the towers fell and the way wt7 fell.  I watched a documentary and they scored some good points.  In particular, they raised questions as to why the core fell.  There were a couple of other questions that popped into my head that the documentary didn't cover.  Frankly, I can't handle the CIA being bad, the US murdering 750000 civilians and all the other stuff you throw into the ring.  It is enough for me that I want to explore just ONE THING for now.  

Suggested reading for Usurper

So you don't miss out on any of em  ;)

The Usurper:I've seen it.  It's a horrible experience but it CAN'T kill you.  It just scares the crap out of you.  I think they should water board a bunch of people who might know something about 911.  Sleep deprive them first.  Then blast them with Tiny Tim music for a few days.  Then water board them.  They'll talk.  911 mystery solved. 

And when someone complains that it's torture I say this:  Provide the information we seek now and we won't water board ya.  If you don't talk, get yer bathing suit. 

The Usurper: The reason most of your hate america rhetoric doesn't get very far with me is that you never seem to talk about the horrors that go on with other countries or groups.  It's the USA blah blah blah.  You also pack your posts with emotional wording that qualifies as propaganda.  And you often resort to belittling comments (wake up). 

Since you are trying to convince people of your view, assuming as true that which you are trying to prove is a bit of question begging. 

All of your radical ideas basically come from the same core philosophy.  The many sites you list contain much of the same conspiratorial language.   And if people don't agree with you, they are told to wake up or something to that effect. 

I know it all ties in nice and neatly for you but you are all over the map with this stuff. 

Artful Dodger: "Water boarding isn't torture. Sleep deprivation isn't either."

It certainly is. Try it sometime and see for yourself.

Bernice: Google "white house authorization of torture" and see what you come up with.

Artful Dodger: "Why not just follow their rules with captures."

Because you can't do it without becoming the monster you are supposedly fighting against.

As to having no sympathy for those who hate America, some have good reasons to hate America, such as Iraqi civilians, 750,000 of whom we have murdered. They certainly have the right of self-defense against an aggressor nation.

The Usurper: The enemy in general.  I have no sympathy for those that hate America and choose to do battle with the US.  I believe that for the most part, our troops act properly.  I also believe that for the most part, radical muslums are evil filthy murders.  All of them. 

Depending on your definition of torture, I don't approve of it.  Water boarding isn't torture.  Sleep deprivation isn't either.  Some things clearly are.  But hey, let's adopt their rules of engagement.  Let's treat them like they would treat us.  Whens the last time you complained on and on about the fact that the terrorists behead innocent civilians?  This is standard operating procedure.  When I think of the enemy, I have people like that in mind.  None of them deserve to live.  Why not just follow their rules with captures.  Just take a big knife and slice their heads off (while they are screaming and writhing in pain). 

Bernice: It may be hard to believe, but it is true. The sickos were (and still are) in the White House. Those who carry out the torture are also sickos. How far civilization has sunk, I agree, is almost beyond belief.

As to AD's statement, "Greg knows these things are true because he has bugged the White House," the reason I know these things is that the memos, numerous memos, have been released which prove it to be the case.

Cheney said, shortly after 9/11, that we would now turn to "dark side," and he meant it. So he, along with others involved, ought to be tried, convicted, and hanged for their crimes against humanity.

Artful Dodger: "I have no sympathy for the enemy. NONE."

So be more specific. Does that mean, if a man is captured, and then tortured until he dies, you have no sympathy for him? Do you think that is ok?

And are you convinced (apparently you are) that every man our troops captured and imprisoned, and tortured, is the "enemy"? In spite of vast evidence that people were just rounded up?

Bernice:Greg knows these things are true because he has bugged the White House. 

The Usurper: well I personally think it is a couple of "sickos" that do the damage and give the rest bad names....

Like someone that tortures animals - cats, dogs etc to death...they are sickos.

I find it extremely hard to believe that dozens of people would condole torture of any kind, let alone think they would pass on an ORDER? to do it?????

The Usurper: I have no sympathy for the enemy.  NONE.

Artful Dodger: I, too, sympathy with those on the battlefield. On both sides, frankly. Perhaps you think that is too big-hearted of me. But soldiers don't choose their wars. As for those who want to rule the world, I think it pretty well established that we are guilty of that.

Bernice: I'm very serious. Wake up and learn that torture was authorized by the White House.

The Usurper:I agree with the last post.  But I also sympathize with the difficulties of fighting an enemy that blends in.  You can't know who the enemy is.  I can't find any sympathy for people who want to rule the world and see us all forcibly converted to Islam or have our throats slit. 

Artful Dodger: "Frankly I prefer them dead to our guys."

Sorry if I connected the dots on your statement. We are talking about murder and torture. You said you prefer them dead. But they died through torture. It simply follows that you support torture and murder. You certainly did not clarify your statement, to segregate it from the discussion at hand, which I find terribly irresponsible at best. You might have said, "Although I do not support murder and torture, otherwise I prefer our enemies dead."

The Usurper:*** ultimately with the White House & Congress.***


are you serious?

are you saying that Pres gives the order to viciously torture and it goes on down the line to the private in the field......


sorry.......


C R A P

Artful Dodger: No sir, I don't prefer a dead American. I prefer we get those troops out so they will neither kill or be killed. I support the troops, as human beings, more than any gung-ho warmonger.

And the blame for atrocities committed by soldiers in "the line of duty" lies with those who give the orders....ultimately with the White House & Congress.

The Usurper:"At least you admit you agree with torture and murder."

If I agreed with that, I'd say that.  Using your way of assuming things from what's not said, I can say that at least you admit you'd rather see our soldiers ambushed and killed and that you are in favor of protecting the enemy.  You prefer a dead American soldier over a terrorist.  Jane Fonda would be proud.

Step out Bush, step in Obama.

http://www.freedomsphoenix.com/Find-Freedom.htm?EdNo=001&At=046164

Artful Dodger: At least you admit you agree with torture and murder. I'm sure that makes you a Great American in Shaun Hannity's eyes.

The Usurper:I don't care what the ACLU says.  They are a group of radical nuts so whatever they have to say I shrug off.  They have many axes to grind.  I don't trust them.  So if the story is true or not, I don't  know.  And without all the facts, I can't make a judgment.  Frankly I prefer them dead to our guys. 

Just google "Operation Mockingbird" for starters.

The CIA is the enemy of any true republic or any true democracy.

I meant, "ignore the evidence"