Artful Dodger: Really... so everyone concerned feels nothing.. especially considering the development of the nervous system, all the indications are that those that who are actually living as independent beings will feel more.

ie you are not making any sense.

(V): there are sad stories in every aspect of life. But the vast majority of abortion are only horror stories to the unborn.

Iamon lyme:That's Wicker man... get it right!!

Have you seen either of the two films?

Artful Dodger: You really think I'm gonna post real horror stories on this board? Of memory scars, things that'll make you wish you could take a 'pill' to wipe the last hour of what you've heard/read.

.... besides.. It'll just get deleted.

Artful Dodger: I've suddenly lost my appetite for pumpkin pie.

Iamon lyme: Obama supports letting babies who survive an abortion - die without any attempt at medical care.

Iamon lyme: I've seen that one before. It so cracks me up (no pun intended)

Artful Dodger: "And what if the scans showed a perfectly healthy baby girl?"

I've been discovered as being liberal, so there's really no point in pretending anymore. And so the answer to your point is a girl is not a woman. Doesn't matter whether she is a baby or a 12 year old girl, a girl is simply a girl... period. Girls are females, they are not women. We respect women, but this does not necessarily mean we respect females.

Only we liberals are able to understand this.

(V): Well played! My straw men salute your straw men.

(V): You'd have to explain to me how a woman's life could be ruined by giving birth. And then you'd have to clarify how that "ruined" life (of the mother). How does killing the unborn child do any "good" to the situation.

And what if the scans showed a perfectly healthy baby girl?

(V): [ At the moment you and Art are saying you want access to their children, under a law you want. Are you a liberal? ]

Okay (V), ya got me... I am really a liberal posing as a conservative and saying what I think a conservative would say. I managed to fool everyone else, but not you. What tipped you off?

Artful Dodger: If the life of the female carrying the baby is ruined through your law...

I don't see you or lemon really answering that. The baby seems to have more rights than the mother to be in your scenario.

If it was a incest rape, the baby was (via scans) shown to be massively deformed... you'd still insist she carries it to term?

This is real life.. not some fairy tale, where everyone lives happily ever after.

" There are thousands of loving homes waiting for a child should the woman not want to raise the child herself."

Guaranteed? No prospects of divorce?? ... some Hollywood star gonna decide they'll adopt yet another baby like AJ likes to do because she can pay off the parents to have what she wants!!

Well the sad alternative is that the unborn baby must die. The seems unjust to me. We have a responsibility to the most vulnerable among us.

Why don't all you men just put us Women in a factory.

Men would love that. I feel sick.

Artful Dodger: 9 long months of being reminded that the woman was raped, What about the women? hmm

Women can Not be forced to have a baby if they were raped, that is messed up and It would mess up the woman's head. My God!! Each day being reminded that the woman was brutally RAPED.

What about the women?

Oh we are just baby makers to you men??

Sad.

Artful Dodger: Nor me... We have programs full of bloopers, and even on news programs early in the morning things.. slip out. One American doing an early morning slot with his mate to advertise their play said a word that he did not know was a swear word in the UK... ... "It's a swear word?"

Iamon lyme: Exactly.

"In our country it has not been conservatives who work to run end plays around parents and attempt to gain access to their children. The people who are doing this is the same group of people who attempt to gain access to other peoples money.
In our country, we call them liberals."

At the moment you and Art are saying you want access to their children, under a law you want.

Are you a liberal?

(V): The crime happened in the real world. There was no rape. No rape, no baby. No baby, no abortion. And no one will be able to run an end play around the mother to make the girl do anything, one way or the other.

That's not to say it can't happen. In some places adults not related to a child are legally able to influence and make decisions for that child without a parents knowledge or permission. This means an adult outside the family (not related to the child) could legally have a right traditionally reserved only for the parents, and at the same time not be held responsible for the child or anything the child does. At the same time, and in spite of parental rights slowly eroding away, a parent nevertheless continues to be held fully responsible for their child.

In our country it has not been conservatives who work to run end plays around parents and attempt to gain access to their children. The people who are doing this is the same group of people who attempt to gain access to other peoples money.
In our country, we call them liberals.

(V): Well you know I like Bill. I've seen that clip many times and it doesn't shock or even surprise me he acted this way. Live shows are a tense business and taping a show with retakes etc cnd wear as well. But this clip, with the added back and forth dialogue is hysterical. I think even Bill himself would love this one.

(V): Of course she's a human being. That's what makes scenarios like this one so difficult. But so are situations difficult that involve separating parents from children, which happens in societies. Even children in difficult home situations have a strong bond toward the parents. The larger question has to do with what is right vrs what is clearly wrong. It's clearly wrong to kill an innocent human being. The most vulnerable deserve our protection. That fact is weighed against a woman carrying to term a child she does not want. The greater good is served by allowing the innocent unborn child to live to birth and beyond. There are thousands of loving homes waiting for a child should the woman not want to raise the child herself. We can't escape the fact that we have obligations and responsibilities to each other that sometimes require sacrifice of self interests (parents do this all the time!) for the good of the other.

Iamon lyme: Yes I've seen that in action in the current administration.

(V): Don't you mean to her parent's face? She is 12 years old.

Artful Dodger: A classic from his pre factor days!!

Artful Dodger: ... And the girl is not innocent or a human being?

Sometimes there is no 'good' answer.

Would you sign the order to make the girl have the baby against her will?

.. not from an office, but to her face.

Artful Dodger: I don't know about that, but Cow Ard is a term that aptly describes one of our political parties... the party that fears Islamic terrorism but is fearless in the face of critics who cluster bomb them with words... ouch, that really hurts us Mr Republican, why can't you be nice to us?

Iamon lyme: If Obama loses, America wins. If Obama wins, conservatives just wait it out and in a few years, when America has been ruined, we can say, "We told you so."

But the ONE can't lose in their eyes I think. They are blinded by MR COOL. Even as he turns the country into a cow turd.

Cow Turd is a political term I think.

Artful Dodger: [ Obama is done. He will lose big in Monday night's debate. ]

Whoa, not so fast... let's not get ahead of ourselves! Obama still has time to pull an October surprise.

For example, he could demand to see Romney's birth certificate. Romney should be ready to show that if he has any hope of holding the highest office in this land... and by "this land" I'm refering only to the US. (Sorry UK and Canada, this is our election, not yours) The presidency is a position of enormous power and responsibility, and can't be taken lightly by any Republican hoping to occupy that position. We can't allow some egghead to simply shmooze his way past the people in charge of making sure this election is on the up and up... we can't just let any smooth talking joker talk his way into power without anything to back up his story... can we?

And on a lighter note and for a HUGE laugh, there's this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9z_GV6wMgBk&feature=fvsr

There is foul language toward the end. So listener beware.

He's going to lose the election BIG.

Obama is done. He will lose big in Monday night's debate.

Obamanesia – Obama Live Birth Abortion Induced Labor Abortions 2008
by Dgraphics2009

It is well known by Pro-Lifers but not by the general public. The MSM has done everything to keep it that way. We must help get the fact out that Barack Obama strenuously defended the indefensible at least three times.

The procedure is frequently called “Live birth abortion” but it is not really an abortion at all: The goal is simply to prematurely deliver a baby who dies during the birth process or soon afterward.”

http://newsninja2012.com/obamanesia-obama-live-birth-abortion-induced-labor-abortions-2008/

(V): And the consequence of abortion is a human being, innocent of any wrong doing, is killed.

Artful Dodger: No it isn't the pro life position, but it is a consequence of the pro life position being law. Just like when you state that God created everything.. you have to include those nasty bugs such as Ebola.

"Well she can't exactly turn around and kill the real badguy: the rapist."

Actually I think with the clarification now done in the UK.. ok, our laws on defending yourself... she could, at the time of the crime being committed. I think our UK laws would even allow for her to kill him after, later on in life if she saw him.. she might face manslaughter, but more likely to be given care via a section under the mental health act.

" But the innocent unborn child can be killed. We just think there's something wrong with that picture."

I think we all think that, but it's not a black and white position. Bit like the decision I was taught at school was behind the use of the Atomic bombs on Japan.

.. "Millions will die defending Japan if we 'land'.. 10's of 1000's of American troops will die taking Japan.

.... we have a bomb that just might break them, but it'll kill 10's of 1000's in the process and slowly kill many 1000's more"

>>>>> What's nice about either option?

Iamon lyme: True.

Artful Dodger: [ ...the pro abortion lobby would still find excuses to kill the unborn. ]

The pro abortion lobby originally insisted it would only be used in cases of rape and incest. Some people didn't believe that and said it would open the door to abortion on demand. Those people were branded by the left as being right wing extremists.

This is how liberals get what they want and continue to get what they want. They lie to get what they want, and then open the door to something worse when they get it. They are doing it now. Just ask yourself, what are the Obama care critics saying, and what are liberals saying about the critics? History is repeating itself.

If the pro life position were to change and allowed for rape and incest (some do) the pro abortion lobby would still find excuses to kill the unborn.

(V): much more than the unborn will get

(V): Well she can't exactly turn around and kill the real badguy: the rapist. That would be a crime. But the innocent unborn child can be killed. We just think there's something wrong with that picture.

Iamon lyme: It's such a cheap shot comment. No one, including myself wants a 12 year old girl to be forced to have a baby of their rapist. That's not the pro-life position. The Pro Life position is all about the unborn and protecting their right to life. That is a noble position.

The Col: Not funny.

The Col: [ As Obama said to Romney "continue" ]

Oh no, does this mean my poll numbers will drop like Romney's? LoL



oh no, I'm doomed!

(V): "Show me in the rules where I'm not allowed to include a reply from anyone else on the same topic."

I shouldn't have to quote myself and say that again. But I will, and I did... and you will avoid it again.

Iamon lyme: As Obama said to Romney "continue"

In your world you feel sorry for the poor struggling abortionist who can barely make ends meet because fewer women are being raped.

The Col: You clearly read into the story something that wasn't there.

Iamon lyme: Are you now saying someone here fantasies about rape, as a even greater avoidance strategy.

.. mmmmm ..

Iamon lyme: You think you're funny don't you.You clearly have a higher opinion of this intruders intentions than I do.

It's not my place to be throwing cold water on anyone's rape fantasies, but the topic had to do with someone defending herself. There was no rape or mention of rape, so speculating over what the straw men of my world would do is meaningless.