Bernice:  Well, political and religious discussion can bring out the claws in some of us.  I think I'm going to have to tighten things on this board, beginning with myself.  I hope that I don't wake up to a mess.  Today was the first day I considered putting the entire board on approval.  We all have to remember that there is a difference between the issue being discussed and the persons discussing it.

well goodnight from me and goodnight from my friend (myself) hehehehehe

it is dinner time and must get cooking.......see ya in the morning....play proper people and no attacking each other with knives while AD and I are asleep......

AD....I agree it does need a tighter control, and smaller posts....sorry Surper... LOL

Snoopy: Most of my posts aren't this long. I'm sorry if I inconvenienced you.

Bernice: Tighter control....that is fitting. Nite now. :o)

Bernice:  I don't think people will really like tighter controls in the long run.  I think it will likely kill the board but we'll see. 

The Usurper: i agree with Bernice on this one
i dont read the very long posts simply because they do get boring after a couple of sentences

Snoopy: Point taken. :o)

I can see that Awsome was right about the moderator on this board so I'm going to take a back seat to these discussions and put in my .02 only here and there.  In the meantime, I've decided to go ahead and tighten the parameters around here.  If anyone feels I personally violate the standards I've set, bring it to the attention of a global and they will deal with me. 

Please read what I've posted above.  Only feedback to my personal message box will be acceptable for now. 

From this moment on, all posts that aren't on topic may be deleted without notice.  Also, any posts that look like they are simply personal disputes, will also be zapped.

These rules go double for me.

Artful Dodger: Great points, Dan.

Some of the historical reasons America has had relatively more abundance are:

1. Geographical isolation from European world powers, especially in America's youth when it mattered most.
2. More abundant, and more easily accessible, natural resources than any other country in history.
3. In more modern times, exploitation of the natural resources of Third World countries.

As to middle-class wealth, this is due primarily to the bit of socialism Roosevelt introduced into our system with the New Deal & thereafter. Your fathers could work down at the plant, work a 40-hour week, own his home, provide for his family. But something happened. What? Answer: Roosevelt's paradigm, mixing socialism & capitalism, has been dismantled one piece at a time.

I dare say that, had the U.S.S.R. grown up on North American soil while the U.S.A. were stuck with Eastern Europe & Siberia, Russia would have won the Cold War.

Tuesday: That sounds right to me. The point you make, that helping is a commandment, implies that help is needed. And you also point out that Jesus specifically indicated it would continue to be a necessity. The only question left is, what kind of help is most effective? Certainly private charity is a wonderful thing. I do not see how public charity is not also wonderful.

Artful Dodger: I agree with Tuesday. And sometimes our strongest critics can provide us with our best insights, if we will listen. It always goes both ways....

Czuch, AD, Bernice, Bwild, Vikings, Lisa G, Snoopy, and anyone else who has expressed disapproval of anything I have posted....I appreciate you guys. I admire your tenacity & toughness.

Over the Christmas holidays, I was watching some war footage with two of my teenage sons. There was a child in the film, looked to be about 5 years old, sitting beside its dead mother and crying. Then there was a man carrying his bloody and broken child, beyond repair. I started to cry. This was a shock to my kids. It just came.

The only other time I cried in front of them was several years ago, when I learned that a promising young man I knew, also when he was only a boy, had lost his life in Iraq. I picked up the Atlanta-Journal Constitution, saw the headline, and it took my breath away.

So here I was over the Christmas holidays, watching war footage, and though I tried, I couldn’t keep back the tears. This was embarrassing. Then my boys started to cry too.

Am I a softy? Perhaps. Am I a weakling? I don’t think so. I was an Airborne soldier in the Army, and before that a state wrestling champion. But you have to care, I told my boys. You have to care...

Nice to see some rules.

The Usurper: this is the image that has always stuck in my mind happened during the Vietnam conflict but
it had a powerful meaning to me has a teenager and still does http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl/hi/picture_gallery/05/in_pictures_the_vietnam_war_/img/5.jpg

Please note the "hot topic" above (in the description).  It basically means that that particular topic is the main topic of the board.  It doesn't mean that other pieces of news can't also be posted but it does mean that people should try to keep up with the main topic of the board.  The hot topic should be the dominate topic but other small side discussion are fine as long as they don't dominate.  Hope that makes sense.  If the Hot Topic is blank, then anything (reasonably) goes.

If this idea doesn't work, I'll stop using it. 

Snoopy: Yes, that is a very powerful, and now famous, image. what you can't see from the picture is how the little girl's skin has been burned off her back. The picture is actually a snapshot of film footage.

I wish that each night, on the nightly news, the American people would sit down to such images and film. There is no shortage of them. New ones are created every day. It would move a lot of people to action against the atrocities of war. Unfortunately, our national media is not even allowed to photograph the closed coffins of our dead soldiers.

Please note the "hot topic" above (in the description).



didnt last long ..............

Snoopy: The photographer who did that lived next to my friend years ago. Very powerful image.

Bernice:  That was a response to Snoopy.  And it' ok to have side discussions as long as they don't dominate.  See my post below ;)

Bernice: War is a great cause of poverty, especially to those who are ravaged by it. So this really is a continuing of the theme I have been speaking on....

It is also a cause for poverty at home, because it diverts valuable resources & money that could otherwise be used to alleviate the poor here.

Even many Iraq vets (not to mention Vietnam vets) live on our streets, with physical & other kinds of impairments, and our government brings them no relief.

One cure for poverty, certainly, would be the elimination of wars of imperial conquest.

Lieutenant James Walsh: "The [north tower] didn't fall the way you would think tall buildings would fall. Pretty much it looked like it imploded on itself."

Assistant Commissioner Stephen Gregory: "I thought . . . before . . . No. 2 came down, that I saw low-level flashes. . . . Lieutenant Evangelista . . . asked me if I saw low-level flashes in front of the building, and I agreed with him because I . . . saw a flash flash flash . . . [at] the lower level of the building. You know like when they demolish a building, how when they blow up a building, when it falls down? That's what I thought I saw."

FDNY Captain Dennis Tardio: "I hear an explosion and I look up. It is as if the building [south tower] is being imploded, from the top floor down, one after another, boom, boom, boom."

Wall Street Journal reporter John Bussey: [in his WSJ office] "I . . . looked up out of the office window to see what seemed like perfectly synchronized explosions coming from each floor. . . . One after the other, from top to bottom, with a fraction of a second between, the floors blew to pieces."

Beth Fertig (of WNYC Radio): "It just descended like a timed explosion--like when they are deliberately bringing a building down. . . . It was coming down so perfectly that in one part of my brain I was thinking, 'They got everyone out, and they're bringing the building down because they have to.'"

Naudet brothers film clip:
Fireman 1: "We made it outside, we made it about a block . . . ."
Fireman 2: "We made it at least two blocks and we started running." He makes explosive sounds and then uses a chopping hand motion to emphasize his next point: "Floor by floor it started popping out . . . ."
Fireman 1: "It was as if they had detonated--as if they were planning to take down a building, boom boom boom boom boom . . . ."
Fireman 2: "All the way down. I was watching it and running. And then you just saw this cloud of s**t chasing you down."

Paramedic Daniel Rivera: “It was a frigging noise. At first I thought it was---do you ever see professional demolition where they set the charges on certain floors and then you hear 'Pop, pop, pop, pop, pop'? That's exactly what--because I thought it was that. When I heard that frigging noise, that's when I saw the building coming down.”

Firefighter Richard Banaciski: [South Tower] "[T]here was just an explosion. It seemed like on television [when] they blow up these buildings. It seemed like it was going all the way around like a belt, all these explosions."

Deputy Commissioner Thomas Fitzpatrick: "We looked up at the [south tower] . . . . All we saw was a puff of smoke coming from about 2 thirds of the way up . . . . It looked like sparkling around one specific layer of the building. . . . My initial reaction was that this was exactly the way it looks when they show you those implosions on TV."

Firefighter James Curran: "When I got underneath the north bridge I looked back and . . . I heard like every floor went chu-chu-chu. Looked back and from the pressure everything was getting blown out of the floors before it actually collapsed."

Battalion Chief Dominick DeRubbio: [South Tower] "It was weird how it started to come down. It looked like it was a timed explosion."

Firefighter Kenneth Rogers: "[T]here was an explosion in the south tower. . . . I kept watching. Floor after floor after floor. One floor under another after another and when it hit about the fifth floor, I figured it was a bomb, because it looked like a synchronized deliberate kind of thing. I was there in '93."

Firefighter Christopher Fenyo: "At that point, a debate began to rage because. . . many people had felt that possibly explosives had taken out 2 World Trade, and officers were gathering companies together and the officers were debating whether or not to go immediately back in or to see what was going to happen with 1 World Trade at that point. The debate ended pretty quickly because 1 World Trade came down."

(The 9/11 Commission did not hint at the existence of these testimonies in its official report.)

The source, force, and course of living are all tied to giving.

Bernice: I like it too. Thanks for posting it. :o)

Cause of poverty...... Greed. As one description says ...an empty hole in the persons or governments heart or policy that looks only to the glitter of gold that only fills such holes or lack of wisdom for a short while and new fillings are constantly required.

... Education and the showing of self worth and that gold is not all that glitters.

And less war... It's a waste generally of money, especially in causes that are no-brainers.

(V):here in the states, a major contributer is drugs

Bwild: Which ones? The legal or illegal or both? And that's moving onto blaming rather then stating the obvious... There is a problem with some people that is a carried down 'burden' which leads to people just trying to survive.

Drugs are not the cause, they are just an evident result of the cause.

(V):I've seen many go into ruin over drugs...drugs that are readily available on the street.

Bwild: Yes... and in chemists as well So? There is an old saying amongst the wise.. "only the abused abuse themselves"

Cause... symptoms are just the evidence, and drug abuse is one of the symptoms.

(V): Right on.

(V): Right. It's the user who needs to be first blamed, not the drug. I know people who smoke marijuana who are quite responsible and successful. Though really, its a different class of drug.

I think Bwild has a point with some of the harder drugs. It's probably pretty rare that users of those are successful. But I still say it's the person, not the drug.

rod03801:higher fuel prices also are a major contributer to poverty

rod03801: I think the point of debate here... Is it the drug abuser who brings himself down because of his drug abuse, or is it the person who is already down, who turns to drugs?

Seems like liberals are going to say that drug abuse is a symptom of a depressed life, and the conservatives are going to say that drug abuse is a cause of a depressed life?

Czuch: I think in reality it has to be a combination of both. But we can't overlook the role of the drug-pusher, whether of illegal drugs or legal ones. There is an insidious process of seduction going on, on TV and the street corner. Nor can we ignore the drug-pusher's sources & channels, not only illegal cartels but also the CIA.

Czuch:It's both in my view.  Clearly, some who are well off, but get involved in drugs, can find themselves in financial ruin (not to mention the physical toll drugs take on a person).   Others, who are depressed for whatever reason, self medicate through the drug of their choice.  I'm not sure of the stats on poverty and drugs. 

While I believe there is a connection between drugs and poverty, I don't think there is necessarily a causal relationship.  Except in some cases, one does not give birth to the other.  They are more like cousins.

The single most common factor to poverty is single parenthood.  A single mom has a 60 percent (it may be higher) greater chance to live in poverty than she would if she stayed motherless or was married. 

I'd have to look it up but somewhere I read that in many of the poorer homes, nobody works outside the home.  In many of these cases, the persons were capable of working, but chose not to work.  Instead, they relied on the government to fix things and take care of them.

Poverty is a huge problem around the globe.  All of us who are able should do what we can to alleviate the suffering of others.  Businesses and community should do everything possible to help the needy in our neighborhoods.  I'm not fully against some (read that limited) government assistance but I'm sure that it should NOT come from the Federal government as they waste money - it's better off out of their hands.  Perhaps State and local governments can help but the bulk of caring for the needy ought to come from the people in the community voluntarily.  (And people who can work, need to get a job, maybe two.  When my kids were young and I needed to make ends meet, I worked THREE jobs.  Suck it up, roll up your sleeves, get your fingers dirty and earn your bread!  That's always been my attitude.

The last thing the government should do is to saddle its citizens with oppressive taxes to support the life style of others.  I'm sure we all know or have known people on government assistance that clearly didn't need the help.  They were milking the system.  And we also know that our "representatives" will spend our money very easily - and they can't be trusted.  Even if they could be trusted, "spreading the wealth around" amounts to theft. 

Yes I recognize that there are people in our communities that need help and could fall through the cracks.  But limited assistance seems better than the crazy entitlement system we currently have.  It's out of  control spending that we can't afford and money we don't have.  But now I'm preaching to the choir.

Cheers~

Czuch: Um, I was simply commenting on the blanket statement that drugs are a cause of poverty. There is a bit of a difference between a debate and a discussion.

I don't fall into one of your cute little labeled "liberal", "conservative" boxes.

rod03801: Blame the person who abuses themselves through having being abused? ...... The only thing I say is what I've seen.... Don't blame the abused person, only get them to admit they have a problem. Do you think they wanted to be abused?

As for marijuana ... It depends on the type as there are two active ingredients, THC and CBD. The first is good for pain and the second is a good anti psychotic. As one scientist said who is growing the plants for our gov.. "It depends on how the plant is grown as to much THC lowers the production of CBD in the plant.

As for saying it's the person with the harder drugs... Again, you cannot blame a heavily abused person (of all 4 types of abuse that I know of) being abused and therefore using heavy drugs to run from the pain... You ask a professional in the field and they will tell you the same if they are any good.

(V): hmm.. I don't recall saying anything about abused people. A significant number of people who use drugs are not doing it because they are/were abused. Many do it because they like the effects, for whatever reason.

The World Bank and the IMF.

This is one major reason our economic system seems to 'work' in the West...the fact that we essentially cheat the system by exploiting Third World resources & labor.

I'm afraid the whole system itself may be starting to break down, which is why the wealth gap is widening so quickly even in the West now...yet reacting upon itself finally, sort of crumbling under its own weight.

is no where near halving child poverty by 2010
according to this latest report

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7896085.stm

rod03801: No you didn't, but I was stating a matter of fact about people abusing themselves that is known by health professionals in mental care, counsellors, healers, clergy and any other person who has taken the time to look into why.

As you say, there is a reason why.

Artful Dodger: Also known about those who come from a poor household is that this can be the building place for a self made millionaire. So a generation is poor in a family, but a significant number of millionaires come from such families as well as people who do well.

Better a poor happy one parent family then an rich unhappy, uncaring two parent family where jobs come before family.

are people speaking from experience here or is all this just a matter of taking someone elses opinions and making them your own?

Bernice: I'm speaking from knowledge seeing some friends going through hell to be clean by facing their demons and such memories that couldn't be made into a film as it would disturb too many people seeing what can go on. I'm also stating FACT not opinion.

Artful Dodger:

And we also know that our "representatives" will spend our money very easily - and they can't be trusted. Even if they could be trusted, "spreading the wealth around" amounts to theft.

..... a good example we all might remember..... the stimulus package Bam just signed? Billions to increase welfare, and billions more to extend unemployment insurance (yes insurance) benefits!

rod03801:

I don't fall into one of your cute little labeled "liberal", "conservative" boxes.


I always get a good chuckle over those kinds of comments.... there is no such being as one who is truly non partisan

Yes, some can be fiscal conservatives and social liberals, or some combo like that... but to not be some form of either????

The funny thing, really, is that most of the people who do make statements like that, think it is a good thing... "oh, not me, I am an independent thinker, I dont fall into any categories.... blah blah blah"

when the reality is, they are saying they dont have any real convictions at all

I have always maintained that I prefer a far left liberal nut case who is willing and able to stand up for their beliefs and admit them and back them up, than some middle of the road fence sitter, who floats around the world like an amoeba in the ocean..... but thats just me

rod03801:
Many do it because they like the effects, for whatever reason.

That may be true, but what made them try it in the first instance? There has to be some underlying reason that one ever takes that first hit or drink or whatever it is, might there be some underlying abuse that caused that?