The Usurper:

yet reacting upon itself finally, sort of crumbling under its own weight.

Im pretty sure it was detonated by a vast right wing government conspiracy

(V): Better a poor happy one parent family then an rich unhappy, uncaring two parent family

You should have left your sentence right there...

Tuesday: The problem is with the system then.... its like using your finger to plug holes in a dam, I say fix the dam, you say lets fill more holes?

We all pay for insurance, my car my home my health, I have never seen the government offer to pay for things my insurance company didnt cover?

Its called unemployment insurance for a reason...

I am a self employed contractor, I cant even get unemployment insurance, I have had very little work this winter, and as a result, I am currently making $2.01 an hour waiting on tables in a restaurant.

I just dont know why people cannot find some sort of work???? I think it is better for me and for the economy for me to be a waiter, as opposed to me having my unemployment benefits increased by taking tax payers money and basically giving it away in a hand out.

If I had insurance, maybe i would hold out, spend more of my time looking for contractor work, and if the government was going to increase the amount of time I could collect, then i would probably hold off from taking that waiter job until the cash finally ran out..... its like the leaking dam, all you are doing is giving someone money to delay the inevitable.

Czuch:  I'm a totally independent far-right fundy 

Czuch: I truly enjoyed your response scoffing at me. Insulting, while trying not to sound insulting. I like that.

You are right, I can definitely have some of my attitudes put into the conservative box, and some put into the liberal box. I don't recall saying that I couldn't. I was simply saying that I am not totally one or the other. I mostly consider myself a Libertarian, but probably mostly lean towards the conservative side of things. (And you may be surprised that actually, I agree with 80% of the things that you type)

I am SO glad I could provide you with such a good chuckle.

I have many convictions Very strong ones, as a matter of fact

It saddens me that you don't approve of me. I hope it's a warm ocean you have me floating around in, like an amoeba. (Even though you know NOTHING about what I stand for)

Czuch: Another possible is Post Traumatic Stress, I know one guy who fought in Northern Ireland during the troubles... Having your mate's head explode right in front of you from a bullet still leaves him with nightmares.

Czuch: No. Sometimes people can just go that little to far on the job front that leaves the children missing what could be an important element in their lives.. a parent being there. And with peer pressure to try this and that to fill the void... ... being rich would then be a disadvantage, possibly deadly.

Czuch: Sure, a huge amount of the time there is probably some abuse that brought people to drugs. And many times, people just like it. I just don't agree that drugs cause poverty, and I guess I was really only responding to a blanket statement. It's certainly more complicated than that. Many who experience poverty, and are on drugs, probably are those ones who fall into that abused category

I don't really know what I would say causes poverty. Aren't there probably lots of different causes? A lot of it could definitely be remedied if people wouldn't define themselves as "victims", and would stop whining and do something about it. There comes a time when you have to fight it and get a backbone and figure out what you can do to take care of yourself. There are OF COURSE cases where someone truly IS a victim, so much so that they need help, and I'm all for that! I would prefer that be taken care of locally, rather than federally though.

Tuesday: Part of keeping unemployment is proof of job searching I think.


Yes, except that you arent required to look for or take a job that is not at least equal to the one you lost..... many people simply go to the same place they know is not hiring and keep applying there every week or two....


As far as grants, i dont mind that idea, as long as they go out fairly, without a bias towards race etc, but I dont know that much about grants, are they all federal grants, or state or private?

rod03801: I hope it's a warm ocean you have me floating around in, like an amoeba. (Even though you know NOTHING about what I stand for)


hahahahaha.... actually, by that point in my post i was thinking more about BBW....hahahahah sorry!

(V): I think you assume it is the two parents who are working who are the rich people, and the ones who are away from their kids too much?

I dont happen to think that is accurate... I think those families are just working extra hard to stay in the middle class, or are middle class working extra hard to get a few extra comforts for their families... but I can see where too much work equals neglect for the children and that can have consequences.

rod03801: It's not always that simple or easy. People have to learn how and learn how not. If the how nots are well established then a person may take a long time to get rid of them and replaces them with how.

(V): There are some who simply make a bad decision.... they think that selling drugs or doing other crimes will get them money faster and easier than getting a real job..... and most of the time they are right. But they are just too lazy to make money the old fashioned way, and then down the road, when they are hooked on drugs and in and out of jail, and having babies out of wed lock and all the other ills that go along with becoming criminals, thats when you want me to have compassion, and feel sorry for them because they are drug addicted and poor... its just too late for compassion when someone has made their own bed with bad choices.

Czuch: I'm afraid 'role models' are abound in this day and age. Which leads people to try 'easy lives'... certain addictions are very hard to beat as you fully well know. Even with certain prescription drugs it can be a case that the person has to drop dosages to come off.

And unfortunately, a bad 'decision' can affect your employment opportunities, leading to temptation. Maybe there could be a change in the size of an effect when it comes to certain crimes and that people are made to remember that the debt has been paid off.

"its just too late for compassion when someone has made their own bed with bad choices."

No Czuch, you cannot really have compassion unless you understand the way of things and the dynamics of why... not quite true, you can see that there is a why even if you don't know which why..

... Sometimes people are molded, moved movers, not in control of themselves but possessed by 'demons' that dictate their decisions, so their will is not free. They are not making the choices as they are not aware, just surviving.

Don't get me wrong Czuch, I believe dangerous people should be kept of the streets until they are 'safe'... But imprisonment has become such a business in the USA, with (or so I am led to believe) not much is done to redirect the inmates, or fix the problems, or at least start the person on a proper program to fix things.

(V): Im not talking about them being on the streets or not, although I can agree that jail alone, without rehab and training is no good.

But I dont want to pay them welfare either, after they have been the ones to choose a life of crime and drugs over hard productive work. i would prefer, if my money is to pay for anything, to put them in jail for rehab and training and they get out to a job of some sort, to me that is the best form of welfare!

But to give people money and stamps for food and extending insurance, without much control over how they are used etc, that doesnt make sense to anyone except the good ol government that liberals so hoipefully support.

Why not, after unemployment insurance runs out, and you have not found a new job, then some money for retraining or the like, but to keep throwing good money away, it just doesnt make any sense.

Czuch: You know, one of the European countries on certain low risk crimes has the offender work as per normal during the week and has to goto jail at the weekends!! Part of their earnings goes to repay their debt.

Over here, the rules regarding unemployment benefit (or job seekers allowance as they call it now) is that you have to prove you are actually looking for a job. They expect you to keep records of you job searching And if after so long you've not got a job then you are expected to attend courses to improve your chances or lose a percentage of your benefit. You can also apply to get specific training for a certain job (such as specialist driving courses (HGV and Forklift), refresher courses for those who want to get back into a career they haven't done for a while, etc, etc.

But this is just what consecutive Conservative and Labour governments have implemented and added onto to cut down on those who in the past thought it was easy money!!

...the jobs available actually paid a "living wage," i.e., one sufficient to support a household. It used to be the case. Does no one here question, why has this changed?

Czuch: Cute, but yes, there is an element of truth in that. Only thing, Hillary Clinton is a part of it. It transcends political party. :o)

...the argument is borne out by the facts:

Poverty has more to do with lack of opportunity than with lack of initiative.

Tuesday: What does Sam Kinison know, anyway? :o)

Tuesday: That's information I could use. I'll ask him. lol

Tuesday: Just got back from talking with Sam. He says all the liberals are in forced labor in hell to make up for their laziness on earth. The conservatives are busy in heaven carving pieces of gold out of the streets & prying jewels from walls. Now I know.

Tuesday: According to Sam. He says selfishness is the key to the Kingdom. Just look (he tells me) at how God blesses the selfish on Earth!

Tuesday: I found that verse in the Bible. It is in 1st Czuch, Chapter 8, verse 9.

The Usurper:

Poverty has more to do with lack of opportunity than with lack of initiative.


Find me a country with more opportunity than the US, and I might have to listen to you for a second...

Czuch: Speak of the devil. :o)

Give it a bit more time....opportunity slips away as we speak...

Obama visits Canada thursday,these are some of the issues on the plate

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFVLXK1uWTM

Czuch: Trying to convince you of this self-evident truth is like trying to tell you what's behind a door you refuse to open. There simply is no way. But all doors are opened eventually, often from the other side.

The Usurper: Don't they have a scheme like here in the UK? It was recognised that to encourage people to want to get back to work and come off benefits that a guarantee of a liveable wage was a must. So we got minimum wage laws, some have tried (employers) to get round this, but our Gov is giving those companies a very hard slapped wrist and telling them to stop... now.

Plus we have Workings Family Tax Credit, a scheme that tops up wages based on a guaranteed minimum earnings level, dependent on being able to show that you have a family and that your job (or jobs) do not meet a certain level of pay that a family would need to live on.

There are even schemes to encourage people to go from part time work to full time, and unless the law is changed, a cash incentive based on the savings the benefits people have saved during your period of part time employment.

But in this state of economy thanks to stupid bankers who it has been shown (over here in the UK) that they ignored advice given by their own risk management head men.... One company even fired the guy giving the warning, then replaced him with a guy who had no knowledge or background in risk assessment.

RBS (a bank) have been told that the contractual bonuses they were going to pay out were not acceptable and an insult to the British people (seeing as we bailed them out) ... So instead over £2 billion in bonuses to people who have screwed up, now they get the contractual minimum... and in shares only.. no cash.

(V): A living wage being one you can afford to live on decently, we have no guarantee of that here. It certainly isn't written into any laws, nor does the government seek to force companies to pay more, since the unions were gutted by Reagan, etc. We do have what is called a "minimum wage," which stands at $7.25 an hour, I think, or something close to it. But let's assume two parents are working for minimum wage...that simply doesn't cut it, and by a long shot.

We also have a small tax credit for children, which some receive once each year at tax time. Sure it helps, but not much. What we don't have, that you do (unless I am mistaken) is national health coverage. Many millions in the U.S.A. don't have insurance. They are one accident or illness removed from the kind of debt it is very hard, sometimes impossible, to recover from. Not to mention that, having no insurance, the care itself will be substandard for an long-term ailment.

You speak of the stupid bankers. It is the same here. In fact, the bankers in England & the bankers in the U.S.A. are often the same people! Laws are always going in effect to protect the bankers here, rarely if ever the citizens. And the credit card companies, etc. That's why I'm not a Democrat, though I spend more time here debating Republicans. For example, our new Vice President, while a senator, pushed credit card laws through giving the companies more power to raise interest rates without reason, etc.

We have no cash incentives based on savings, at least not built into the government system. My brother spent some time in Germany in the '80s, said at that time the poor were much better off than the poor here. No one was destitute. Here, we have homeless veterans living on the streets, etc.

Czuch: I was very impressed by it. You are a thinking man and you communicate well.

I would only say a couple of things, that I hope you will think about and perhaps research, in time.

A lot of the poverty that you saw in the rest of the world stems from the neo-colonialism of exploitation from the Western powers. America is now the strongest neo-colonial power in the world. There are no working standards or protections at all there. That's why our companies build there, and employ child labor, etc. We also destroy democratic movements (it is one of the missions of the CIA), replace them with strong men who benefit personally by our removal of the natural resources of the countries in question.

The other thing I would say is, I believe that other nations see America more truly than we see ourselves. They are those who are impacted by our foreign policiy They do not believe that we are spreading freedom or building democracy. They see that those countries we oversee become poorer & more politically corrupt, for the most part. We have overseen the countries of Central America for ages now, for an example. We've done some truly terrible things there.

What people in other countries may misunderstand, however, is that the American people themselves do not perceive their country as corrupt, as you rightly said. They feel we are doing good in the world. If they didn't, they would demand things change. The hard part, from my perspective, is getting the American people to see what a bad world citizen our nation has become. As an American, I feel that to be my duty, as unpopular & unthankful a task as it is.

The Usurper: Yes, we have National health coverage as well as the ability for people to buy private policies if they wish.... often though in cases of speciality, it's the same consultant, just he's getting a little extra cash via his private patients.

I heard that the lack of universal health coverage is costing 10's of thousands of lives each year.... I can't understand a policy that kills it's own people through lack of a basic service necessary to peoples well being.

.... One doctor from Africa came over with his team recently to the USA to run a clinic for those without health insurance.... why is such a thing necessary? The USA's current system is inefficient, expensive to run and delivers less service then many many countries less rich then the USA.

Why the waste? Can't the USA government stand upto the lobbyists and tell them to get lost and be ready for change for the better in order to save lives?
Or are the 'perks' that some get from 'deals' to much to resist?

... Something stinks about the situation and that some put money above lives of their own people, basically via lack of care letting them die. Over here we call that Corporate manslaughter, those responsible would be in jail.

(V): It certainly stinks, and Corporate manslaughter is an accurate way to describe it. The government doesn't stand up to the lobbyists here because the lobbyists own the government. Many politicians move back and forth, from government jobs, to lobbying jobs, and vice versa. We are the richest country in the world, but that wealth is actually accumulated into relatively few hands. This trend has continued very strongly during the last 3 decades, so that, economically speaking, the Democrats are now to the right of where the Republicans used to be. The result is tragic for the working man.

(V): Add to that, that our major media are now owned by literally a half-dozen major corporations whose executives and major shareholders have a financial stake in not only distorting the reality of our predicament but also in omitting important news & facts which do not fit their agenda, and the result is that you have Americans thinking European countries are dangerously socialist while here, the poor are blamed for being poor & the system is praised for its "opportunity."

The Usurper: Dangerously socialist!!!!!!!! Each country elects their own government, from many party's. Right, left, central and oddball!!

Since we changed our digital services provider I can now see what you mean, as we get to see Fox News (owned and run by conservatives) ... The editorials are certainly and talk bits are certainly.... lacking.

The Usurper:

But let's assume two parents are working for minimum wage...that simply doesn't cut it, and by a long shot.


Well what the Huck are two people who can only obtain minimum wage jobs doing having kids in the first place??????????


Its just so frustrating to listen to you babble on about how poverty is because of lack of opportunity, yet you live in the country that offers more opportunity than any other, and when we try to give Iraqis a chance for more opportunities, instead of sending them food decade after decade, actually giving them hope to take care of themselves, then all you want is for Bush to go to jail, and whine and cry about the imperialist nation builder!!!!!


Its kind of like the example where no one breaks any laws, ever.... well, what would the police do, or the jails, what about all the revenue generated from fines and such????? As much as we say we want no crimes, at the same time we rely on crimes to make us money and provide jobs.

Its no different here, you say you dont like poverty, yet what would liberals do if there were no poor to hand out money to, what if there were no one that needed the government to help them, then where would liberalism be??? You rely on the poor and uneducated and the elderly and the down trodden or else you wouldnt even exist, you have no interest in getting rid of poverty, you just want to keep peoples heads just above water, like a drug dealer, you want them to need you, its your only life line.

Czuch: Are you saying that only the rich should have babies? Are you proposing a somewhat big brother approach to having families where only approved parents can have children and any poor people who have babies are to be prosecuted and jailed?

Liberals rely on the poor and uneducated and the elderly????

Can you explain that? As it seems some capitalists rely on the poor being poor, some parties rely on their voters being 'uneducated' and 'uninformed' to get their votes, and what has the elderly got to do with it?

As for the downtrodden, why are people treading on them? Are some people that empty they need to tread on people to feel good about themselves, or would a gradual process of tackling the problem(s) be a better and greater idea.

Czuch: lol Those are some interesting points of view you have. Ah well....experience teaches where knowledge is lacking.

(V): You see my point, about how many Americans think. It is so twisted, it is hard to unravel. And Fox News, the content of which you can now examine for yourself, gives you an indication why.

The Usurper: There is the old saying "Life begins at 40"... why... because of an old problem that the Jewish faith found that a certain amount of living is required before certain aspects of Judaism can be taught. For to try to teach before hand would be like planting a seed in barren soil.

The Usurper: ... Fox news it appears, or at least the 'editorial' shows would like your President to fail in his plans.

.... But that would mean the USA would end up in such a state that it would make the great depression look like a boom period.

... Funny they want the USA to be on the brink of total economic ruin.