A criminal investigation into the police handling of the 1989 Hillsborough football disaster must happen, an ex-chief constable has said.

Richard Wells, who led South Yorkshire Police from 1990 to 1998, said charges were "absolutely essential" after a damning report into the tragedy. It found police changed statements and tried to blame fans for a crush which led to 96 Liverpool fans dying.

Victims' families and politicians have called for urgent action on the report. The current chief constable of South Yorkshire David Crompton said if the law was broken, there should be charges.

The report also found that 41 of the 96 who died had the "potential to survive" and calls have been made for fresh inquests.

The original inquests into the deaths in 1990 and 1991 recorded verdicts of accidental death.

David Cameron said Attorney General Dominic Grieve would review the report as quickly as possible in order to decide whether to apply to the High Court to order new hearings.

Trevor Hicks, whose two daughters died in the disaster, said he wanted to see new "proper, fair and honest inquests".

Iamon lyme: Please... the "I'm a martyr act" just doesn't work. Everyone in the UK has the right to worship as they please. Within 5 miles of me there are at least 20 CHRISTIAN churches of various denominations. Our 'malls' have pastoral care stations, we have a Christian cafe, at least 6 Christian schools and colleges.

We do though have the right to take to court any church (of ANY religion) that is by UK law committing an offence... obey laws of land is in the Bible isn't it? You enjoy news of Muslim clerics promoting hate speech getting locked up or deported..

..Well, the same laws apply to Christian churches as well.

"And by what authority are you able to suggest that I do not have that right?"

The Bible says so... judging isn't it!! I thought the relationship between God and the person was a one on one thing... that stillness and peace one obtains from being.

"That's easy... just say something an atheist wouldn't say."

And who is the judge on what an atheist would or wouldn't say?

(V): [ I'm not an atheist. ]

Prove it.

"How?"

That's easy... just say something an atheist wouldn't say.







Hey, I said it was easy... I didn't say it wouldn't be painful.

Iamon lyme: I thought that post was directed to me. But now I see it wasn't... so feel free to ignore it. ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ahhhhh Oh man, I just made myself laugh again.

By the way, has it occurred to you that when someone replies to your messages, they aren't necessarily talking to you?

(V): [ ..who are you to tell someone how to believe or know God? ]

Who are you to tell me that I can't? Did God reveal this to you?

And by what authority are you able to suggest that I do not have that right? Is the ability to suppress that right something you have in the UK, because I don't believe we have anything like that in the US... not in my backyard. But there are people here who would love nothing more than to suppress and restrict any right associated with Christianity. Is that what your brand of religion advocates?

Artful Dodger: You are the new age mumbo jumbo..ist.

Which, this born again stuff is.

I mean.. who are you to tell someone how to believe or know God?

What gives you that right??

Iamon lyme:

[ I'm not an atheist. ]

Prove it.

How?

Iamon lyme: He'll deny it. Watch for it. But he's definitely a heretic.

Artful Dodger: [ He's not an atheist but definitely has created god in his own image. A caricature really. ]

Unfortunately some Christians have done the same thing... they have created in their own minds a more palatable god for them to look up to. It's unfortunate because I'm sure God is not impressed with anyone who gives him lip service and then misrepresents who he is.

However, I'm sure V's god (whoever or whatever he/she/it is) meets with V's approval and lives up to his expectations.

Iamon lyme: Jules isn't a Christian by any stretch. He spouts new age jumbo jumbo and denies basic tenets of the Christian faith. He's not an atheist but definitely has created god in his own image. A caricature really.

(V): [ I'm not an atheist. ]

Prove it.

[ Neither am I a supporter of 'evangelical' type Christianity. ]

So?

[ Is that hard for you to comprehend? ]

"that", no... you, yes.

Outside the USA it isn't.

An example of overgeneralized thinking. Seeing as how the US has it's own la la landers and life long residents of Loonytownshipshiresburough, that last statement of yours isn't just meaningless... it's dead wrong.



"An atheist is a man who has no invisible means of support" [John Buchan, On Being a Real Person]

"By night an atheist half believes a God" [Edward Young, The Complaint: Night Thoughts]

"No one has ever died an atheist" [Plato Laws]

Übergeek 바둑이: re:The only reason why this is happened is because Stephen Harper is a blind fool."

You still feel closing the embassy was a bad idea?

The prime minister has said he is "profoundly sorry" for what he called the double injustice of the Hillsborough disaster. He was addressing the House of Commons following an independent report into previously unseen documents about what happened on 15 April 1989.

Ninety-six fans died after a crush at Sheffield Wednesday's ground.

David Cameron said the panel found the safety of the crowds at Hillsborough had been "compromised at every level". Relatives of the Liverpool supporters who died at Hillsborough were briefed on the report on Wednesday morning.

Mr Cameron said the double injustice was both in the "failure of the state to protect their loved ones and the indefensible wait to get to the truth", and in the efforts to denigrate the deceased and suggest that they were "somehow at fault for their own deaths".

He said details of the report were "deeply distressing" and said it showed the Liverpool fans "were not the cause of the disaster". The report, by the Hillsborough Independent Panel, showed police and emergency services made "strenuous attempts" to deflect the blame for the disaster on to innocent fans.

Mr Cameron said that Attorney General Dominic Grieve would review the report as quickly as possible in order to decide whether to apply to the High Court to order a new inquest. Many relatives believe more lives could have been saved and hope the papers will shed new light on events.

Sheffield Wednesday issued an apology on Wednesday morning to all the families whose relatives were involved.The club said on its website: "Throughout the compilation stage, the club has worked closely with the panel and the other donating organisations to ensure that, in line with the ethos of maximum disclosure, we have been totally transparent.

"The club would like to offer our sincere condolences and an apology to all the families who have suffered as a consequence of the tragic events of 15 April 1989." The families have been looking at the Hillsborough Independent Panel report at Liverpool's Anglican Cathedral. Mr Cameron also received a copy of the report after it was given to the families, in order to enable him to prepare his statement.

The panel has been scrutinising more than 400,000 pages of documents for the past 18 months. A number of the victims' families have been campaigning for more than 20 years for the papers to be released. The relatives started going into the cathedral to view the documents at 08:00 BST, before they are released to the public this afternoon.

Cabinet papers are not usually published in the UK until 30 years after they have been written, but MPs agreed to their full, uncensored disclosure last year. Approval came after 140,000 people signed a government e-petition, set up by Liverpool fan Brian Irvine, to trigger a House of Commons debate on the issue.

The panel, chaired by Bishop of Liverpool the Right Reverend James Jones, said it had analysed more than 400,000 pages of documents relating to the disaster from more than 80 organisations.

Ninety-five fans were crushed to death and hundreds more injured on the overcrowded terraces of the Hillsborough stadium, which was hosting an FA Cup semi-final between Liverpool and Nottingham Forest. The 96th victim, Tony Bland, was left in a coma after the disaster and died in 1993.

An independent inquiry led by Lord Chief Justice Taylor found the main cause of the disaster was a failure in crowd control by South Yorkshire Police. But the victims' families hope the papers will shed more light as to exactly what caused the tragedy and what happened in the aftermath.

They want to know how the cabinet and then Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher responded in the days and months that followed.

Margaret Aspinall, whose son James died at Hillsborough, said: "I think it is going to be hopefully a good day for the city, for the fans, but most importantly for the families, and hopefully we get what we should have had 23 years ago."


That the report shows that nearly one third of those who died could have been saved...

Iamon lyme: I'm not an atheist. Neither am I a supporter of 'evangelical' type Christianity.

Is that hard for you to comprehend? Outside the USA it isn't.

When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

Iamon lyme: re :If you think you should show respect by not commenting on it today, then by all means go for it "

But I did comment on it

The Col: No, I didn't miss your point and yes, I chose to ignore it. If you think it's that important then by all means, take a day off.

I'm not a politician and as far as I know, neither are you. Do I need to repeat or expand on what I said to V about double standards? If you think you should show respect by not commenting on it today, then by all means go for it. But please be advised, sanctimonious guilt mongering isn't something I will fall down for... I'm not a Democrat.

Yer better off preaching to the choir... your choir.

(V): "...a certain phrase regarding casting stones."

That's cute. The atheist thinks all he has to do to get a Christian confused is to refer to scripture.

Casting stones is what you do nearly every time you post, but I'm sure you've worked it out how you are not a hypocrite. I have yet to meet an atheist who couldn't make a double standard their modus operandi.

Iamon lyme: You missed my point, or chose to ignore ignore it.I was speaking of party bickering.One of the inspirational things I personally witnessed after(and during) 9/11 was how Americans came together.It was brief, but it was inspirational on a humanistic level.Discussing 9/11 today is understandable , to discuss it in terms of party politics and divisions , not so much.But as you said, whatever floats your boat

The Col: "...putting The politics of 9/11 aside for just one day."

Be my guest. No one is stopping you from taking a day off from reality, that's what holidays are for. I take my days off when I choose to.

By the way, this is the one day of the year the terrorists would just love to pull off a strike, but like I say, take the day off if that's your cup of tea. I live in the US, not Canada or the UK.

Übergeek 바둑이: We can agree to disagree , the embassy had been rendered useless,that, and rising temp in the region was reason enough, aside from the political optics that always exist IMO.Other than citing all the other situations where you feel an embassy should have been closed , do you have reasons the Iranian embassy should have remained open?

(V): exactly

The Col: People from all around the world died on 9/11, not just Americans.

Iamon lyme: So you intend to have all the Tampa bay strip joints provide info on which Republicans (and/or their staff) let their hair down and attended lap dancing sessions?

The term hypocrite comes to mind Iamon lyme... and a certain phrase regarding casting stones.

Iamon lyme: Do you know which of the firemen hoisting the flag below your post are Republican or Democrat? People of both parties died on the horrific day ,both victims and responders. I suggest a good start in honouring the many who died might be by putting The politics of 9/11 aside for just one day.

Bwild: "dont inhale??? lol"

It was worse than that. Kids aren't stupid, they knew what the adults knew about Clinton... "If the president can 'bend' the truth and have sex with whoever and whatever, then why is it wrong for me?" They didn't literally say that to me, but you could see it in their faces and in their attitudes.

A lot of high school kids thought it was cool that the president was a skirt chaser. It was HIllarys job to cover for Bill and to say that she didn't believe the allegations. But when the Monica story broke, I guess it was too much for her, so she started in breaking a few things herself. lol

Keystone XL Pipeline Project

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I'm hoping their optimism is not premature... in other words, hoping for the change needed to get things rolling again.

Iamon lyme: dont inhale??? lol

Artful Dodger: I'll be honoring the true terrorist busters today... and not the ones who opposed the security measures we took after 9/11. I don't care what anyone says about Bush. He did the one thing that needed to be done, and did it over the protests of nearly every Democrat representative and leader. Bush made sure our nation would be more secure.

Iamon lyme: [ Before beginning his first term as president in the 80's... ]

Wo... I was off by a whole decade! I should have remembered when Bill Clinton was in office, because two of my kids were teenagers then. I had a heck of a time convincing them that they shouldn't try following his example... presidents have a lot of influence, especially over kids who often think the president can do no wrong.

Artful Dodger:

> Vote for Obama bumper stickers are proof that you can't fix stupid.

That is because Mitt Romney is really a looooot better than Obama and he is really, really going to change Washington for the better. With Romney in the White House, the lobbying and special interest groups will have no clout, and the era of big money politics is really going to come to an end. Romney really represents how Washington will change for the better and he will really work for the benefit of the working man rather than the benefit of the rich and powerful.

The Col:

> I'm proud of Harper and my govt in this one.Our Liberal party would never have the stones

The question is: what has been accomplished by closing the Iranian embassy? Will Iran stop its nuclear ambitions? Will Iran even be embarrassed by it?

The only reason why this is happened is because Stephen Harper is a blind fool.

Need proof? Why is it that they never broke relations with Pakistan? After all, no other country has sold more nuclear technoilogy in the black market than Pakistan. Pakistan is one of the main supporters of terrorism, and it has been proven that Pakistan's military and intelligence protected Osama bin Laden.

Stephen is playing a stupid political game. Since Americans are in the middle of an election, foreign policy decisions will affect the election. By doling this Stephen Harper wants to put pressure on Obama to follow suit. Since Obama can't really do that as stupidly as Harper did, then Republicans can accuse of Obama of being weak.

Western powers are hypocrites. they want smaller nations to have no nuclear weapons, yet they make no effort to get rid of their own. They point the finger to countires pursuing nuclear weapons, while saying nothing about their own nuclear programs. How many of you know about the recent American research on bunker busting nuclear missiles? And what about the Russian threat to develop yet more sophisticated missiles to counteract the recent American research? While our governments condemn others, they continue to develop more deadly nuclear weapons and they continue to pursue a weapons race. Stephen Harper is the least charismatic prime minister in recent memory. Since his foreign policy decisions carry little weight internationally, he is constantly trying to make some sort of name for himself.

Artful Dodger: And Hillary is no better. Whatever she wasn't involved in, she was aware of. Having her for president would be like having Bill all over again, the only difference being is that she apparently knows how to keep her pants from falling down.

Artful Dodger: It's funny because it's true. He truly is a master of subtlety. He managed to come across as supporting Obama, and at the same time reminded us of how Obama didn't really accomplish much in the past four years.

Before beginning his first term as president in the 80's both friends and enemies alike described Clinton as "machiavellian". And he proved them right with some slick slieght of hand maneuvers, like staying one step ahead of the law by using the presidency to avoid going to court over assault charges, shady business dealings in Arkansas, and who knows what else? Not to mention lying to a grand jury, which would have landed anyone else in jail for willful perjury. Being disbarred was not much of a slap on the wrist when you look at everything and everyone he was involved with. I don't see him as some grand old southern gentleman, and anyone who does either doesn't know anything about him, or doesn't care to know.

hahaha thank you both of you.

Iamon lyme: lol

The real message (hidden) within Bubba's speech at the convention.

Vote for Obama bumper stickers are proof that you can't fix stupid.

Iamon lyme:

MissDelish: Yeah, you missed a rehash of the old hash that came from previous hash reconstituted from hash that came before that... so no, you really didn't miss too much.

It all went kind of like this...

Iamon lyme: If Obama wins the US will go to pot and he'll just keep making excuses. He's a terrible president. A total incompetent. He can make speeches and that's it.

Bwild: Right. It seems a simple principle but so many seem to miss that basic point.

too many posts to read, did I miss anything?

Iamon lyme: you are dead right here LamonLyme:) Those that don't/won't work think it is their god given right to be given free handouts from the government. Most of them have never worked a day in there lives and always have their hands out for freebies.

Artful Dodger: You did a good job of tracing the money back to where it starts, but for some people it doesn't register until you point out that the money those taxpayers had to give up to the government came from them putting in time and effort working at their jobs.

And they are motivated for working at those jobs for the purpose of supporting themselves, which in many cases means they are paying for their own healthcare as well. Democrats are masterful at killing motivation for investment and growth, and then then wonder why businesses are holding on to their money and not investing it. It's not like they want to stall their own growth or hold themselves back. They would be investing it jobs and their own futures if the government would ease off and stop raiding their piggy banks anytime they felt like it.

Even a thief has to work at getting his free money. But we've made it easier (not to mention legal) for some people to get their free money than it is for a thief to get his.

And of course there are those who will remain "unenlightend" no matter what you tell them. They don't know and don't care to know... all that matters to them is that they get their free whatevers and for whatever reason... they don't want to be bothered with knowing anything.

Artful Dodger: businesses either raise rates or flat go broke. more unemployment..higher cost of living.

And for you knuckleheads suggest that "businesses" pay taxes for medical premiums etc, just remember that businesses are in business to MAKE MONEY! They will pass on extra costs to the people. We always pay. Pass regulations that costs businesses money and they raise the costs of their goods. Raise their taxes, they hire less people and raise the costs of their goods. Do the liberal morons not get this basic principle?

Iamon lyme: I had an interesting conversation with a lady who was going on and on about France's medical care being free. She wants the same for here in the US.

I said, "But it's not free. Where did you get that idea?"

Then she went on to describe how they didn't have to pay for doctor's visits or hospital procedures etc.

I asked her if she knew what the tax rate was in France. She didn't.

I asked her if she knew where the money came from to pay the hospital staff and pay overhead etc.

She said it came from the government.

I asked her where the government got the money to pay the hospital etc.

She said through taxes.

I asked where the tax money came from and she said from the people.

Then I suggested that the people were in fact paying for their medical care and they were paying for the medical care of others too. Taxes are indirect payments for medical coverage but it's still a payment. When you "pay" for something, you can't say it's free. In fact, I said, nothing is really free. Somewhere someone is funding the "free" stuff.

ObamaCare isn't free. Many people think it is. They are delusional. The costs will be high and it won't just be $ that factors into the cost. Quality of care will diminish as it has in Canada and throughout Europe.