Tuesday: That sounds great.. I hope there is perhaps a stimulus plan for those with college school loans.. haha

Pedro Martínez: there is over 5 million out of work in the US right now due to the stupid decisions last year which ended up putting us into a recession.. it's not that they aren't trying to find jobs.. companies are folding left and right.

ScarletRose: OK, that I get, but how is the extra money a "stimulus"? A stimulus stimulates you to do something. This seems to me to be nothing more than just a generous gift from the government.

Pedro Martínez: It's not a good word. And you're welcome. lol (j/k)

The Usurper: It's an awesome word. I had quite a blast when I first read it. :))

Tuesday: Oh, I see. Not a good idea, if you asked me. :)

Pedro Martínez: if it was in the form of food stamps (excluding cigarettes/alcohol), clothes stamps, bus fares stamps, education (as in fees,books etc) stamps, it would be a good thing.

But as in Australia, they are giving it to the wrong people, for the wrong reasons.

Pedro Martínez: Some of the stimulus money went for tattoo removal.

Tuesday: I think it's just wasted money. Too few and too scattered to be able to help the plants reopen or to help corporations in general, yet too much if you count it altogether. I can imagine a number of better ways how to stimulate the economy.

Bernice: I can agree with that. Wrong people, wrong reasons.

Artful Dodger: Now it's you who's jesting, no doubt.

Tuesday: I'm not blaming your son for taking the money, I'm sure he's a good person (he's your son after all ), I'm blaming the government for giving it to him.

Pedro Martínez: No, I'm not jesting at all.

Obama is getting a new fleet of new helicopters. Hmmmm, 11.2 Billion dollars. Yeah, like one isn't enough.

But the topper is when he said he "is proud that we passed a recovery plan that is free of earmarks."

Really? He's either lying or he's stupid. Neither choice is good.

There's language in this "recovery package" that requires the Transportation Security Administration to buy 100,000 uniforms from U.S. apparel makers (more that three million of tax dollars). That's an earmark.

Three billion in extra transit money. Another earmark.

Fifty million for habitat restoration in the San Francisco Bay area. Another earmark.

1.2 million for products from these companies: General Electric, L-3 Communications and Reveal Imaging Technologies. (Msnbc.com is a joint venture of Microsoft and NBC Universal, which is a GE company.)

More Earmarks.

There's the 189 million provision for Filipino World War II vets, most of which don't live in the US. Another earmark.

This is supposed to be emergency legislation.


And then there's the 2 billion for battery research? Emergency legislation? Maybe Obama is just redefining earmarks. Kinda like Clinton did with "is."

There 800 million for carbon capture projects.

And yes, it's true. There are 200 thousand dollars for tattoo removal? Seriously.

Artful Dodger: Now I'm doubly confused. I'm afraid you'll have to put the two pics side by side and explain more fully. Preferably you'll back up your explanation with evidence & links to the source. I still believe those are Wicker Men!

Just an aside....if the arguments are straw men, in what way are they so? Ought a picture really to be considered a thorough refutation? I mean, I know that works for O'Reilly & Hannity, but come on... :o)

Pedro Martínez:  I have to agree.. I think they would have been better off giving each person so much to where they could use it to pay off bills and make purchases they would like to buy.. it then goes back into the companies.. and leads to job security.. I heard the amount of money they spent could have given each family a pretty good lump.. enough to really stimulate things..

Tuesday: I'm afraid he's not kidding us indeed, read this.

"$1.7 million for "Swine Odor and Manure Management Research" ...

http://www.propublica.org/special/earmark-creep-in-the-stimulus-package-090202

I especially like 88 million to move an office,

Artful Dodger: "Msnbc.com is a joint venture of Microsoft and NBC Universal, which is a GE company."

Further proof that our media, while "private," is not neutral. A half-dozen groups own ALL the major media in America. It is not possible, with such a consolidation of interests, that we can get the full picture by watching/reading it.

The Usurper: Clearly you know what a strawman is? If so, then you understand that there is no refutation required on my part. If someone refutes and argument I'm not making, all I need to do is point that out. If then, they insist that I am making that argument, I can ignore them. The onus is upon the other to show I have actually said what they say I've said. The smart thing of course, is to ask for clarification, instead of building a straw man and then blowing over.

If I say, "I'm against gun control."

and you say, "Oh. So you're in favor of criminals murdering innocent citizens then."

you get one of these:

Strawman  Your argument didn't address my own, but nice try.  


no refutation is needed as your argument speaks for itself

Tuesday: They laugh because he speaks out of both sides of his mouth. He says no pork and then signs the bills containing billions in pork.

The Usurper: WEll, duh. MSNBC is the Obama network.

Tuesday: What if.. we are already in hell.. ???

Tuesday: According to Bon Scott, "hell ain't a bad place to be." (notice quotation marks...lol)

Artful Dodger: Actually, I must confess I wasn't following the argument to which your straw man was a reply. A bit befuddled & off-focus. I was mostly just teasing.....

About MSNBC....you are correct. Likewise, Fox News is the Bush channel.

The Usurper:I don't agree with your Fox analysis.  I've seen Bush's policies smacked around plenty.  O'Reilly routinely criticized his administration for the blunders in Iraq.

Think about it... we could really be in Hell.. and yet when we die.. we are actually going back to a place where we are given another chance at Heaven... hmmmm!!

Tuesday: I should say you are in Heaven.. which door did you take??

Artful Dodger: Earth to AD...the America you know no longer exists. It hasn't for some time. I can see that nothing I've said for the past 3 weeks has made a dent. lol Seriously, Americans in general need a new perspective, in my opinion. I'm afraid we're all headed down, down, down...with little hope of escaping from the Matrix (in the short run).

As to Obama's stimulus package, it doesn't seriously address this country's economic problems, I agree, but I'm not sure anything can short of an entire restructuring of how we do business (repealing NAFTA, stopping outsourcing & forcing companies to manufacture in America, reestablishing unions, etc.) And...in spite of its weaknesses, Obama's plan WILL help some people who NEED it! That means it is both more efficient & more ethical than Bush's bailout.

Artful Dodger: You can thank Bush, his illegal war & his oil-sipping buddies, not to mention Wall Street high-rollers...for that.

The Usurper:It goes back to Clinton.

Artful Dodger: It goes back to Reagan, who first set the record for government debt, before Bush Jr. broke his record.

But it really goes further than that...to Nixon, who removed the gold standard. Then back further, to Wilson, who signed the Federal Reserve into law.

Roosevelt tooks steps to help the economy. Clinton hurt the economy in the long run with Nafta, but nevertheless he balanced the budget, and provided a surplus...used up by Bush (and more!) to fund an illegal war.