Artful Dodger: It has nothing to do with race relations.. M Jacksons behaviour was related to something that can happen to any kid..... a psychotic oppressive, violent dad.

He is just a 'titanic' in such that through who and what he became will since he was and is a big star be more public.

Hopefully much good can come of this if politics stays out of it and it's dealt on a purely human level.

Czuch: $5 stores... I doubt it, but prices on "Made in China" goods would go up, McD's would cost you more...

Also, if like us you've stuff done in India. Then if like us, you ban(ish) 'sweat shop' clothes made (if not already) then more price increases. Plus ... many dead and obsolete computers are recycled in India by hand... with the chemicals they use.

... another reason to make sure your hard drive is wiped 1000% before selling it, or getting it recycled!! .... etc.

Tuesday: Yep!!

gogul: Maybe.

gogul: Why keep repeating myself??? Nope.... not needed.

Czuch: No foreign cheap labour source ... basically no more "99c" stores.

Artful Dodger: Nope.

Czuch: I didn't say that. I never said that.

Please.. as you say keep to the debate.

Czuch: In your first reply you missed the point, and in your second. I gave you examples.

It's called history of how some collapses have affected a town... another such example would be the dust bowl problem that happened in the USA in the 20th C.

And I am sticking to the debate, and what I'm saying is relevant and part of the debate as I learnt from economic classes at school and from observing economists talking on depressions and collapses of the past.

And you have no proof that the auto industry will not collapse... and are you willing to let all those jobs be put at risk with no evidence you are right? I've not seen you bring anything to the debate to support your opinion.

Czuch: No proof or history... ghost towns from the collapse of the local supporting industry when such towns population have been reliant on one industry. Never heard of this Czuch?

And AD's example is not relevant, it was not caused by a depression but a change in competition rules. If you cannot understand the difference then study economics

If the auto industries go under it's not just them that will suffer, but again you'd need to know economics to understand this... look under supporting and related industry and services.

"Its a I cant keep up with the times or run a business correctly related collapse"

Which has led to a depression. The causes I agree can apply to certain companies, but others have been caught up in all the mess and failed of no fault of their own.

Czuch: Um... you do know that eating snot is comparable to eating a McD's.

Something about the flavour and make up of the fats and sugars!! Or so the scientists say!!!!

Artful Dodger: Btw.. a service being split is not the same as a company busting through worldwide economic depression. Such a comparison is not relevant.

We've had services privatised or put into competition (rail travel, post, etc) and a certain amount of rearranging is normal. People will lose jobs, jobs will be created.... That is a normal event well known to those who've studied economics and not the same as a depression related collapse.

Do you understand this?

Tuesday: It's that there seems to be no recognition of history and economics that gets me, and that there is no understanding that a country is a big economy built of various segments of industry from various areas and that collapse of one segment can lead to the whole being severely weakened to the point of collapse.

** and I refer everyone else to this answer in reply to their replies **

Saves me time typing

Tuesday: Well. to call a people downtrodden and names in the same breath...

Oh well

Czuch: No. I'm saying No country is perfect...

"dont even know what a doctor is?" please... They use both western and chinese medicine And if you are in China dial 120!!

And please what about our own pasts as mentioned? Us British invented the concentration camp I believe during the Boer war, we massacred Iraq's before Saddam was even born. British Imperials stole Rhodesia off the native African people and worked them just as we had slaves as your country did at one time.

You've ignored this. I was making a point about history and that we are all descendants of conquerors and those who did terrible things in the past.

Even our country's main religions (as in USA and UK) hands are stained in blood.

"snot eaters" ........... is that what you call Chinese people??

Artful Dodger: So... the USA being a big company of sorts should never be bailed out......

Guess those loans better be called in then.

And many banks failed or are just scraping by, and many people lost their life savings. Have no pensions from the results of what's happened. Like those who invested with Madoff.

And yes.. many small businesses fail, but that is normal and not relevant to the current situation. The current situation is not normal.

Ok, say we let you make the decision that all the automotive businesses in America should go under.. And then stand in on a podium in front of all the workers, look them in the eye and say "Your jobs are gone".

Czuch: Really!!! Can you explain that more, especially in relation to cold war activities?

"actually making it sound like your point is that their economics are even better than the US?"

No... They've just developed and reached their peak(?) at the right time to able to help you guys in the USA out.

"direct expense of their own people, where billions are in poverty, again, hardly the shining example you seem to think they are"

One.. they do not have billions of people, about a billion last I read.. 2) Red Indians. ... 3) Millions of USA people are without healthcare, and while the American healthcare companies are creaming it, they suffer.... 4) Slavery... and the carrying on of segregation in the USA in areas even into the 20th C..

It's rare that a country looking back at it's past (if not impossible) can say it's always been good to it's or another people!!

IE... No system is without fault. This "shining example" thing.. which country or country's live up to it... honestly.

And as for why I say socialism.. because of Karl Marx. You've heard of him??

Czuch: I was talking economic models and policy. I was talking about governments ripping off it's own people and others.

No confusion here. There is no remit (it's a UK joke ) here.

Czuch: I wasn't. I was just showing them as an example.

"if I am a corrupt government and have the ability to take most of the money from my minions, and leave most of them in poverty"

Please... The USA has acted in manners where such an argument is very shady. Interfering with countries, supporting dictators to replace elected governments who's only crime was not fitting in.

"and leave most of them in poverty, of course i should have tons of extra cash lying around"

And pure capitalism is? Or at least some peoples idea of?? As mentioned before.. extremism is to be avoided.

"What, you think 'majority rules'" ... when it is a REAL majority. That is one of the stinks over here over the current voting system, due to voting figures.

Artful Dodger: I cannot agree with that, especially after certain incidents with judges over here.

"Banks that failed should have been left to rot. Same with the auto industry."

And regarding the employees and investors and the effect on the moral of the nation of such falls? No business is perfect, they are run by humans

Artful Dodger: You are not everyone.... or a business.

As for banks being safer..... Not over here from what we've seen. They can make very BIG mistakes you know... I gave a hint on this by mentioning the RBS and mentioning how they messed up. They took part in the buying of another bank without accurate accounts from them and ignored warnings from their own risk assessment people.

Joe Public bailed them out.</b>

Artful Dodger: Sorry, but if they feel there is an exception, etc to the law, or the law is wrong they will speak up. Many judges do and that is how reforms come about, especially if the legislation is wrong.

Artful Dodger: It's called a business rejuvenation. Many companies that are going under have been bought and revamped through an influx of cash to modernise (etc) them.

I'd thought you'd have known that??

as to core principles...... that to me is nonsense. Things change, it's one of the true constants of the universe. We still are a developing race.

Artful Dodger: "And all the experts say it will be impossible to pay back at the current rate of spending."

You mean yours is an opinion and is not agreed by everyone.

And the liners made sense to me, as the liners are reflective of what I've seen. But that is because of UK news and a few other things.

I mean... your car won't run on an empty tank will it? If the tyres are bald it makes it dangerous to drive. So.... what do you do.. buy a new car or get more fuel and new tyres?

Artful Dodger: No, Bush lost the election as the trust in him and the Republican party went out of the window.

And if you looked at want your Pres and others have said that savings will be made from cuts in areas that spending is stupid. We covered this about a week ago in talks made by various folks of the Democratic party. And your Country is already in so much debt from Bush's admin.

And btw...More spending..... The RBS was going under through bad mistakes and bad deals, the government here saved the bank and now are looking at getting paid back. If the RBS had gone under the damage to this country, the banks workers and the public who have put their life savings into deposits or stocks and shares re the company would have been a real killer as to the UK's moral.

And as for the courts, judges do have the right to argue about the law, sentences and the like.. over here in poor ol' 'liberal' UK. Some do, some will also do in cases where it's more of a matter of personal feeling and not as such an illegal activity.

And Palin would make a good Pres.. sorry, but that is funny!!

Czuch: Steven Hawking amongst others have put their ideas out there for all to use. We also have it over in the EU where we collaborate on projects. Politics are forgotten, like in the development of the Euro Fighter, the big atom smashers we have.. Concorde, etc, etc.

And socialism is left wing, and considered over here by definition the same as communism or as near as.

But, that's how certain MP's of high rank have defined it, especially those in the Labour party who were on the far left.

I use China as an example as it is a fact. A FACT that the USA has borrowed much from China and imports many 'cheap' goods from China.. McD's toys, American flags, etc, etc.

Vikings: No.. I answered. Doesn't mean you are going to like the answer!!

It's a TV prog where the chef turns restaurants that are failing around.

Czuch: Really?? China is doing what at the moment? And they loaned the USA how much money.. seeing as they own the biggest chunk of the USA's national debt re a foreign country.

As to innovations.. If the education system is good then politics has nothing to do with it. A genius is a genius. I mean.. which socialist (in a loose term) country launched the first satellite? Ever heard of Stephen Hawking??

Bad management can come from any form of government or company. We've just had one our privatised train companies go down the drain and our Gov has had to takeover the running.

It's not politics, it's bad ideas.

Vikings: I answered most of the stuff, and in some respects answered this as well. And yes... if the investment is done right then you can get out of debt. Some guy on Ramsey's Kitchen Nightmares did it.

Vikings: Same could said for many conservative ideas.. They don't work. Eg.. your private health system being so expensive yet in return not offering value for money.

Yet other countries have used 'liberal' ideas for years... and they've worked, and still work. While some polices have failed.. just as with a number of conservative ideas.

Eg.. our recent problem with MP expenses dates back to Maggie Thatcher and her government and the changes they introduced.

As for a full government takeover.. please... that is pure rubbish, Labour (a socialist party) has been in power for years and nothing has happened, many other countries have had liberal/socialist governments and there has been no government takeover. In some respects the conservatives over here have made more 'red tape' when last in power, something certain agencies over here are having to fight and struggle with.

Vikings: I don't see the point of your reply... Arnie is Republican by politics, and with respect, republican/conservatism is not a set ideology. There is no set normality to a party ideology, it is by nature going to be different from person to person. As it does over here within the conservative party as well as other right wing organisations.

As to your current president, He's inherited a huge national debt, got into power at the time of a worldwide depression. And quite frankly I do not see how you can accuse your pres of printing money when Bush has made it that the USA owes other countries so much money.

... Your president now is trying to cut that debt as well as make sure the USA does not fall into an abyss.

Btw.... "Palin a conservative, Reagan a Conservative"

Doesn't say much for conservatism in the USA from what I've seen. Irangate.. and Palin not knowing what she's talking about.

As for gay marriage... quite frankly.. only about 52% voted to ban it.. hardly a clear majority is it. That is why judges do have the right I feel to contest Proposition 8. If the majority was very clear then ok.. but then again.. some of which the ban is based on is based on incorrect interpretation of Biblical scripture.

Artful Dodger: I refer you to my post to Vikings

Vikings: Well now Arnie is running it and has been for a while. A republican.

And as for the policies.... We've had social policies and managed to do all right.. Even repaid the loans to the USA we owed from WWII.

So... it's not so much 'liberalism' but they way they've been doing their books. Bad management is bad management... I mean the USA national debt grew at a crazy rate under Bush.

Gonna blame that on liberalism??

Artful Dodger: California..... from what I gather it's had problems before balancing it's budget.... has it not?

Czuch: No news yet, same on all the other cases the IPCC are looking into.

Czuch: From a quick glance.. still awaiting the trial to finish on the accountant. He faces upto 105 years for his part in the Ponzi scheme.

As for the US depts that checked into his business over the years... no idea.

Yeaaaahhhhhhhhhhhh Madoff gets 150!!

gogul: ... out of six D's + time, you stick to two??

Dark Vamp: It ain't about left or right, it's about history, events that have happened.... Sometimes things governments and party's like to forget.

We've even got the leader of the BNP over here denying the holocaust every happened!!

Tuesday: .. The Aramaic (which Jesus spoke) says "Daddy", it's not so much marriage, it's divorce that has led to a bigger revolution re Protestants/Catholics (Henry VIII)

.. The immersing is as such symbolic, water being a substitute for spirit... so it's in the thought behind the act that counts.

And I'm an old style transmigrationist... Nut the bit about babies being sinless and in certain respects not making choices still applies.

I chewed

Tuesday: Nothing wrong with music, just some of the songs are ... inaccurate.

The RCC is not a cult, just tooooo secret in certain respects. I'd love them to open their archives.

As to their money.. both aspects of Protestant and RCC faiths suffer from the same greediness.... but not as a general rule of thumb.

Tuesday: The Roman catholic Church and Roman Emperors of old would be proud of them.

I mean they invented the business side, and the Protestant extremists modernised it.

I prefer the age when it was still a fellowship and philosophy

I wonder if they have back supports cause of the heaviness of the make up?

Tuesday: Aye, I know... I notice on such Christian groups sites, they advertise alot of products to buy.

As the saying goes.. "In America it became a business".

.... I recon the peroxide comes delivered in a tanker!!

Tuesday: No I know where that containment of makeup that got knicked went to!!

Tuesday: Don't worry.. I've found worse, be it though a religious extreme group. Some Ultra right wing Christian (WBO Church) that would like all Jewish people killed for crucifying Christ.... The fact that it was part of the plan just goes in one ear and out the other

gogul: We have several news channels over here, not just the BBC.

And btw... they did expose the lie Tony Blair made about the 45 mins business. But of course... that's not important

Artful Dodger: So, you are saying people from the Bush admin as well as your military are lying?

Artful Dodger: I'm saying it's Sunday night, you asked me to produce 3 facts and I did.

The rest I don't need to prove as it is historically stated. It's been in the news, so only one who has lived on Jupiter could miss it.

And I'm going to bed soon.

Look up the recent historical events, statements made by your government, military leaders, and your soldiers and their commanders in Iraq.

Good eating!!

Artful Dodger: Nope..... you are.

Artful Dodger: No. I'm just doing what you asked... produce 3 facts. Are you going to say it's a matter of opinion that they happened?

......Nagasaki was not the planned target of the second A bomb.

Over the Cuban missile crises, much secret talking was going on, which resulted in a compromise involving Turkey and what was placed there strategically.

Racial segregation was still widely practised in parts of the USA even in the mid 20th century.

******************** are these just opinions?