Tuesday: Yes. He is beyond doupt the leader of the world... what a joke this terrorist bubble. sry ny but that is how it is.

Artful Dodger: As a man I'm willing to let live and grow the life that comes out of my loins (loins?). But women do as they please of course .... .......

gogul: It's murder to kill the same human being once it is born.  (so far it's murder...who knows where it will be in years).  What's the difference? 

And some companies will make billions off Cap and Trade.  Goldman Sachs for one.  And they made two billion and paid NO TAXES.

Oh and Al Gore will profit big time if cap and trade goes through.

But other countries will NOT limit emmsions.   And who will get burnt by Cap and Trade?  

The little guy.

Thanks to Obama. 

Artful Dodger: A morning after pill is maybe something different as aboration. It has to go fast in my opinion. It's impossible to talk about for weeks and then get rid of it. That's cruel, I can not say for the embrio, but for me.

gogul:even the morning after pill goes too far for me.  But that's because of my underlying belief and to be consistent in my view, the morning after pill does the same thing as any abortion only at the very earliest of stages. 

Artful Dodger: It's idle to talk about cell splitting or how that is called, isn't it. Who can't protect oneself from getting the little monster should leave it maybe lol

gogul:  I'm not so sure it's idle.  It's fundamental to the question.  What is the unborn? 

I remember one radio host said that the debate is over and the pro-life side has lost.  he said that in the 70's.  lol.   Here we are and the debate is still strong>   It will continue to be a debate long after I'm gone as long as it's legal.  

Isn't it odd that Obama supports abortion at any time for any reason and yet wants to reduce the number?  Why?  If it's not morally wrong, and it's a personal decision, then why does reducing abortions matter? 

I also find it odd that people can be so venomously against waterboarding and yet in the same breath favor the dismemberment of the unborn.  Sure, they say let the woman decide but who gives the unborn a voice in the matter?  The two views are inconsistent. 

Übergeek 바둑이: For approximately the fist two trimesters the fetus needs the woman to survive,



Sorry, i havent read the whole post or any after yet, I like to comment on certain points when I see them....

I believe that a fetus could survive in an artificial womb... I agree that a woman is a unique kind of incubator, I dont think you would really argue that just because of this, that they are an object to be sold though

Tuesday: Being the US does not give anyone the right to torture no matter what

Okay, so you dont think that making a man eat his last meal and then walk himself into a chair to be executed is a form of torture? I sure do, and just like you think that waterboarding you would be tortuous, I feel the same about someone leading me to my death chair

Übergeek 바둑이: It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in, or incidental to, lawful sanctions.


So it is not torture to inflict this kind of pain if it involves a lawful sanction? So, if I make a law saying that waterboarding is a lawful way to interrogate a terrorist suspect, then all of a sudden it is not torture anymore????

Übergeek 바둑이: A girl of 13 is pregnant.


I dont disagree that abortion should be a legal medical option..... but it is not necessarily the free choice of a woman to do with her own body as she wishes.

.... and you have to remember, this "child" you speak about at 13, it wasnt so long ago, when life expectancy was much shorter, this child was in the prime of her life and easily in child bearing years

Tuesday: Obama has nothing to do with torture and he is phasing out of Iraq


this started under the Bush administration, phasing out of Iraq....

just pointing this out, since all we hear about is how Obama inherited so much of a mess from Bush... but it doesnt seem like you want to admit everything else, like this, that he inherited as well

Czuch:  good point  ;)

Tuesday: What did Bush do to stop abortions?


You forget that we have 3 seperate governments.... president, congress and courts... Bush did what he could to get supreme court in his favor on abortion, and he is personally against it... he did what he could do, but this should help your curiousity a bit?

Tuesday: I have never yet blamed Bam for anything, except being a socialist with a bad plan, but nothing specific so far

Artful Dodger: Keller is a doctor, they have an oath remember

And torture was used (waterboarding being one method) more than "THREE" times.

And there are other methods to obtain info without torture. I mean whatever happened to all those truth drugs, psychics, lie detectors, etc??

Artful Dodger: No... it's a biological life form, just like a plant, virus (and from a scientific point of view it is a fight between mother and embryo)......

But when is life (from a spiritual point of view) conscious in that biological shell??

That is the point when suffering can occur.

(V): You equivocate. 

gogul: Rubbish!

WE import so much, that is the problem.... and Health and Safety requires that food that can be poisonous is not sold. And they have to allow imperfect conditions on storage as well as a safe period so that goods do not suddenly go off on the stroke of midnight.

I don't throw away yoghurts, and the EU law about fruit & veg shape and size is being fought at the moment.

... Switzerland has Health and Safety regulations doesn't it... or does it sell poisonous food?? If it does.. then the EU would ban imports from Switzerland, so your chocolate makers would loose most of their trade!!

Artful Dodger: No. Telling the truth. Without 'spirit' life as such is not alive, just so many elements working to make more of the same. Crystals can do that

Are you going to say a rock is alive??

(V):  Pure rubbish.  Total metaphysical nonsense.   You're a biological life form.  Sperm is alive.  For that matter, there is no such thing as a beginning of life as much as a continuation of life.  Life begets life.  This spiritual nonsense is not scientific.  It's a life.  It's a being.  It's a scientific accepted FACT.   Remember, you're the one that insists on facts.  It's a fact and stated over and over by the world's leading scientists and embryologists.  It's a settled matter.   A new human being comes into existence at the MOMENT of conception.   Not AFTER some metaphysical phenomenon occurs.  Science isn't on your side and the witch doctor isn't a trusted expert in this case. 

Artful Dodger: God is rubbish?? The OT is rubbish!!

Please, one minute you use science, one minute you are against it. Adam was created then given life.

Now... which is it??

And don't use some old outdated (and the Jewish community know it) understanding of life... It was thought up before scientific understanding of life came into existence!!

(V):  We are talking the science of life.  period.  What we KNOW.  Not various interpretations of ancient texts. 

Yours is a subjective view and mine is objective.  Yours based on suppositions and theory and mine on solid and  provable facts.  

Artful Dodger: So God is now not part of life, we have no spirit or soul??

There goes Christianity... best all those making a living out of it hang up their coats!!

(V):  Oh well 

Those three times of waterboarding....

That's what the CIA admitted they had done, there is evidence that it might have happened before Bush sanctioned it!! Therefore how can it be said (seeing as the CIA hides a lot of things) they only did it three times?

Many things in the CIA have done yet not admitted to until someone has blown the whistle on them.

Especially as it is not 3 times, but ON THREE DETAINEES!!
The actual number of times that actual waterboarding was carried out on those admitted 3 people ... and on one person such actions were carried out over 80 times!!!

... According to your Justice dept!

(V): No rubbish. Junkfood is a normal dish for Brits, for Swiss it is junk.

gogul: shows how little you know about us Brits!!

"........

United States law

The United States Supreme Court in Sosa v. Alvarez-Machain, said that the Universal Declaration of Human Rights "does not of its own force impose obligations as a matter of international law."[164] However, the United States has a historical record of regarding water torture as a war crime, and has prosecuted as war criminals individuals for the use of such practices in the past.

In 1947, the United States prosecuted a Japanese civilian who had served in World War II as an interpreter for the Japanese military, Yukio Asano, for "Violation of the Laws and Customs of War," asserting that he "did unlawfully take and convert to his own use Red Cross packages and supplies intended for" prisoners, but, far worse, that he also "did willfully and unlawfully mistreat and torture" prisoners of war. Asano received a sentence of 15 years of hard labor.[105] The charges against Asano included "beating using hands, fists, club; kicking; water torture; burning using cigarettes; strapping on a stretcher head downward."[165] The specifications in the charges with regard to "water torture" consisted of "pouring water up [the] nostrils" of one prisoner, "forcing water into [the] mouths and noses" of two other prisoners, and "forcing water into [the] nose" of a fourth prisoner.[166]

..........."

(V): Your "we import so much" doesnt rebut what I wrote. Poor people in GB buy their food rather when it soon expires, when it's cheap. This is the British system, cheap food, and waste. This is a global problem btw a real problem a huge one.

Fish and chips recipe:
Take haddock (or another nice fish). Dip it in batter and fry it deeply. Take potato pieces and fry them deeply. Serve with vinegar or even better, tartar sauce (the real stuff based on mayonaisse).

All that oil might be considered junk food, but my taste buds disagree. It certainly beats tofu with brussel sprouts!

gogul: i will agree with you on one bit of that post

i was once at my local council incinerater dropping of things that where to big for normal refuse collection
and i noticed large vans comming in and dumping their loads of cakes biscuits etc
having done some work with the homeless so asked one of the drivers why they were doing this
and his reply amazed me
they had a couple of days left on them before sell by date expired and it was cheaper and easier to dump them than to gave them to the local homeless charities

Übergeek 바둑이: The fish and chips in paper please, not plastic.

gogul: No. Again you show how little you know us Brits.

And it's not all cheap food, many items are expensive but necessary for good cooking and a good diet.

And much "waste" we compost and reuse in growing next years home grown crop of veg and fruit... and if you have the space.. to feed animals such as pigs.

Übergeek 바둑이: Tartar sauce.. I make at home!!

Imsoaddicted: I thin also they have to consider how long it'll take to get to the homeless people... It can be an additional waste on energy (fuel,etc) transferring food around on the hope they might get it those who need it.

Shame.. but sometimes it's just not economic or safe to donate some food products.