(V): Okay, that is a big problem then now facing Israel, I can understand their reluctance to compromise!


Anyway, If I were with you in charge of a new negotiation agreement attempt, here is where I would go with it.... give the pals enough land to make them complete, I dont know what that is or if it is even reasonable, but I would try to get there, and then one condition would be, that is it, done, no more land no more nothing, and henceforth any actions against Israel by anyone would be met with instant annihilation from the international community, thats it, no second chances, no more negotiations, nothing.... i am sure it wouldnt be too long before we would have to lob nukes everywhere making good on that promise!

Czuch: Instant annihilation... Genocide is against the law and is considered a war crime. Eg.. one of the reason that we went to war against Saddam and others recently.

And using nukes in such an area close by where much of the world gets it's oil..

.... M.A.D!!! anyway.. doesn't the Americans have MOAB (GBU-43/B) now?

nearly 600 dead to 4 Israelies..... over the last ten days.

And now this....
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7814054.stm

What a great war... not

(V): It's pretty disgusting how Hamas fires rockets (that they know will be traced by the Israeli army) from schools and hospitals.Cowardly also applies,but life is cheap to them,and they know their propoganda(and this human shield warfare technique) will be swallowed hook line and sinker by many.We can only hope that pressure is placed upon Hamas by the people of Gaza,and the international community,to both stop firing rockets into Israel(they hit a kindergarten yesterday,thank God Israelis are keeping their children home from school) and using the people of Gaza as shields,knowing full well that their fire will be returned to the source.The situation is very sad

Jim Dandy and Art: The Israel army fully admits that they have killed about 130 Hamas... where as 660 (approx) Palestinians have been killed since this action began. ie 530 (approx) civilians have been killed.

And btw.. where are people to run to in Gaza? There is nowhere to go. Even certain elements within Israel (B'Tselem) recognise that this war is wrong and that no-one will win.

And the International community is putting pressure on both sides. It's no good getting Hamas to stop if Israel carries on as that will just start Hamas off again.

The solution being put forward is for an international force to be in charge of the border crossings to let aid in and keep weapons out.

This reminds me of certain dictatorships of the past that said if one of our people is killed we will execute a hundred of your people... and what happened to them....

(V): Genocide is against the law and is considered a war crime.


Not if it is agreed upon that is a condition of the agreement, whichever side breaks the agreement will be wiped of the map, if both sides say okay, well then it aint illegal anymore

Czuch: Wrong Czuch.....

The Contracting Parties,

Having considered the declaration made by the General Assembly of the United Nations in its resolution 96 (I) dated 11 December 1946 that genocide is a crime under international law, contrary to the spirit and aims of the United Nations and condemned by the civilized world,

Recognizing that at all periods of history genocide has inflicted great losses on humanity, and

Being convinced that, in order to liberate mankind from such an odious scourge, international co-operation is required,

Hereby agree as hereinafter provided:

Article I: The Contracting Parties confirm that genocide, whether committed in time of peace or in time of war, is a crime under international law which they undertake to prevent and to punish.

Article II: In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

Article III: The following acts shall be punishable:

(a) Genocide;
(b) Conspiracy to commit genocide;
(c) Direct and public incitement to commit genocide;
(d) Attempt to commit genocide;
(e) Complicity in genocide.

Article IV: Persons committing genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in article III shall be punished, whether they are constitutionally responsible rulers, public officials or private individuals.

Article V: The Contracting Parties undertake to enact, in accordance with their respective Constitutions, the necessary legislation to give effect to the provisions of the present Convention, and, in particular, to provide effective penalties for persons guilty of genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in article III.

.. It's called the Geneva Convention and was signed after the events during WWII.

And here is a list of those who have not signed...

http://www.preventgenocide.org/law/gencon/nonparties-alpha.htm

I don't see the USA, Israel or the UK on that list on non signers.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7815929.stm

Peace through ideas leading to a solution.

(V): My point is that it would not really be genocide if you agree to have no grievance against me for any future retaliations to your unprovoked attacks!

Simply put... we agree on one last and final land agreement....and agree to not involve the other in any military or terrorist or other acts of aggression towards each other.

The world also agrees that any future aggressions will result in the forfeiture of anything already agreed upon, meaning all bets are off, and the international community will back the non aggressor in any and all actions against the aggressor!

Simple, take some land, be happy or die, your choice!!!

Czuch: How can they take some land if no-one gives it to them? They are not exactly a country with advanced technology are they!!

And even if the international community (who have been trying to get involved legally for quite some while... but a certain country keeps vetoing action) gets involved, it'll mean more so that the Geneva Convention will be followed. But this time it'll be an international force between Hamas and Israeli forces. Far bigger then both sides together.... hopefully.

(V): It's rather simple actually.Stop terrorist activities and acknowledge Israel's right to exist.That's a good start point to any negotiation with another party,it's called "negotiating in good faith",been done for centuries.

Jim Dandy: And at the same time, seeing as their use to be a actual Palestine country, let them have a real one, not two bits with chips knocked off by a powerful neighbour.

It's so simple, yet no-one is doing it. Put UN checkpoints between the Israeli/Palestinian borders so no arms come in, etc, etc.... A bit of real security just like Israel wants.

(V): The Palestinians need representation that is supported,too many(Hamas) would be out of a job if peace and a resolution is achieved.Some think that's the same reason we've yet to find a cure for cancer.There is more money in managing the disease,as opposed to curing it.

Jim Dandy: Yep. They may then just put all of their efforts into building the country.. they do some good even at the mo.. just the bad element needs it's teeth pulled. It certainly is lining the pockets of alot of weapons manufacturers. They do like a lovely war.

Artful Dodger: .. Pre 1945 there was a Palestine where Israel is now.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Mandate_of_Palestine

Here's a nice map of it in 1924

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Palestine_N.JPG

The following is the text of the Balfour Declaration:

"His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."

That's why Israel found it so hard to be recognised as a country when it went to the UN and declared itself as a country.

Artful Dodger: I just don't just check Wikipedia Art...

I look at several sources.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/wwone/middle_east_03.shtml

The history of the fall of the Ottoman Empire and the invasion of Palestine.

Are you trying to tell me that all the people in that area at the end of WWI suddenly vanished and a new people came into existence filling the void?

http://www.zionism-israel.com/maps/Palestine1100tribes.jpg
And this ancient map showing Palestine divided by the twelve tribes of Israel.....

http://www.zionism-israel.com/Map_of_Palestine_1845.htm
And this map shows.....

And this about the end of Ottoman rule..
"In Egypt, too, British forces gained a new commander, General Sir Archibald Murray, and additional resources. By stages the mission of the Egyptian Expeditionary Force (EEF) evolved from a defence of Egypt to an invasion of Palestine.

First, the Sinai Desert, with its sand storms and searing temperatures, had to be crossed, a test of endurance as well as of engineering for the troops involved. Access to water dictated what could be achieved. Tens of thousands of camels and drivers were required to supply the thirsty soldiers, while a water pipe and a railway were extended to the borders of Palestine."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/wwone/middle_east_03.shtml

..."The region came to be known as Palestine in the time when the Greeks ruled the region beginning in about 333 B.C. The name “Palestine” comes from “Philistines,” the name of the people who settled in the narrow strip of land along the southeastern part of the Mediterranean coastline some time after 1200 B.C. (Take a look at this map to get a better sense of the area.) Today, “Palestine” refers to the area covered by Israel, Gaza, and Jordan.

The distance from Dan to Beersheba, the traditional northern and southern limits of Palestine, is around 150 miles. Two long valleys run north and south, one along the Mediterranean coast and the other along the Jordan River. Between these fertile farmlands are many small mountain ranges suitable for raising sheep. Deserts lie to the east of the Jordan and to the south and west of the Dead Sea."
http://www.americanbible.org/brcpages/palestine

An in Judaism 101....
"During World War I, the Zionist cause gained some degree of support from Great Britain. In a 1917 letter from British foreign secretary Lord Balfour to Jewish financier Lord Rothschild, the British government expressed a commitment to creating a Jewish homeland in Palestine. This letter is commonly known as the Balfour Declaration. Unfortunately, the British were speaking out of both sides of their mouth, simultaneously promising Arabs their freedom if they helped to defeat the Ottoman Empire, which at that time controlled most of the Middle East (including the modern states of Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, and Iraq, as well as significant portions of Saudi Arabia and northern Africa). The British promised the Arabs that they would limit Jewish settlement in Palestine mere months after the Balfour Declaration expressed support for "the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people." "

I think it's safe to say you are wrong Art, and need to restudy the history (ancient and modern) of the area, including who named it as a matter of when it was under government from another country.

Artful Dodger: You said ..."showing with evidence when and where this Palestine "country" was."

I have. Not only as under ancient names as used by the ruling force, but also as a name as chosen at the end of WWI. The Arab People were there before the influx of Jewish people after WWI. Israel may have a long 'history' but compared to the other races that have lived their before and after the fall of Israel/Palestine as a nation in olden days. Even if Jesus's day the area was known as Palestine.

http://www.answers.com/topic/palestine..

Artful Dodger: well, you can label it anyway you want, but the fact is THEY are there and they are not going away,Obviously they are not going to submit or be cowered,and fighting will continue,and the birthrate for them (and most of the third world) is on their side, no matter how many Israel tries to import with those that have Jewish ancestry.Some one better start thinking strategically, because apartheid, mass deportations or even genocide won't work in this world anymore. The Pal's have world opinion on their side, and they exploit this. The situation won't just go away

(V): How can they take some land if no-one gives it to them?

I never said "take land" I said agree to give them land, one last time, and then cease fire with full consequenses for the next to break that cease fire agreement!

Full consequenses are that you bomb the heck out of them until they cry uncle then you take whatever you want and make them your indentured.

Charles Martel: well, you can label it anyway you want, but the fact is THEY are there and they are not going away,


Okay, yes they are there, but just because I am here and I want to be there, and you are there and dont want me here, does not mean, that I have to let you be here and saying you used to be here does not mean I have to let you be here again....

Problem is really that the Pals dont just want a new chunk of land, they want the extinction of the IsraeliUntil that part is worked out, I dont know what else can be expected, but you never hear anyone saying that we need to help the Pals to agree to the existance of Israel, do we???

Artful Dodger: http://www.palestine-net.com/history/bhist.html The complete history of the area/country known as Palestine.....

And please in full quote stuff I have quoted..
"His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."

And yes, Palestine is a Latin word.. Like many Latin words which the English language uses or derivatives of. As we also use words based on Greek, German, French, Spanish, etc, etc, etc. And?

As a certain famous film says.. "What have the Romans done for us... Aqueducts!!"..

Czuch: Then you just become another mass murderer like Hitler and the Nazis... And what happened to them in court after WWII?

Czuch: Actually this is under work via the UN and various important people who both sides actually listen to.

I guess it would be too much to ask Howard to move to a 6 star hotel,much better diss'ing the incoming President,and spending loads of cash turning the hotel Obama is staying in into an armed security installation,.....stay classy GW

Artful Dodger: so on the news when they refer to the Palestinian people...who are they referring to?? I am NOT trying to be a smart a** either,lol...I am serious...who are they referring to then??

Artful Dodger: Never ever any Arabs living in that area before Israel applied and eventually got recognised as a country by the UN?

.... Who did live there under the Ottoman Empire times?

Pre 1914 they recon (approx due to lack of records pre mandate) that there may have been a population of over 700,00 people living in that region under Ottoman rule.

Artful Dodger: So the people living in Palestine could not be called Palestinians?

.. and as for "They never had a government, never were an organized people, have no history in the land," maybe they were ruled, but many after WWI and WWII gained their autonomy.... The Red Indians lived in America before us Europeans moved over... Were they not a people? Never were organised...

From the encyclopaedia Brtannica..
History » From 1900 to 1948

In the last years of the 19th century and the early years of the 20th, the Palestinian Arabs shared in a general Arab renaissance. Palestinians found opportunities in the service of the Ottoman Empire, and Palestinian deputies sat in the Ottoman parliaments of 1877, 1908, 1912, and 1914. Several Arabic newspapers appeared in the country before 1914. Their pages reveal that Arab nationalism and opposition to Zionism were strong among some sections of the intelligentsia even before World War I. The Arabs sought an end to Jewish immigration and to land purchases by Zionists. The number of Zionist colonies, however, mostly subsidized by the French philanthropist Edmond, baron de Rothschild, rose from 19 in 1900 to 47 in 1918, even though the majority of the Jews were town dwellers. The population of Palestine, predominantly agricultural, was about 690,000 in 1914 (535,000 Muslims; 70,000 Christians, most of whom were Arabs; and 85,000 Jews.

And no history in the land... explain who the ottoman's were ruling and like in many latter empires teaching them to look after themselves?

Artful Dodger: Right...... So why in America, are the Native Americans getting back land and ownership of land that was taken from them by a foreign invader from another country?

Artful Dodger: Country names change.... We even get invented ones like Belgium... Still, there was a population there, living their for many, many years.

Btw.. what do you think of the Haganah terrorists?

Jim Dandy: hahahahaha and the whole of Australia is laughing about it........it is a dirty trick by G Dubya as a snub to Obama.....and poor old Johnny isnt even the prime minister, he is only a private citizen ...hahahahahahaha

Artful Dodger: So a people that have lived in that area called by different names including Palestine are not entitled to a home? Is that what you are saying.

They should (like the Jews) just be nomadic and be spread all over the world?

.. I was using the American Indians as an example.

Btw.. what do you think of the Haganah terrorists?

Im sick of the fighting . All my life these two nations have been scrapping! Common sense and a resolution will not come about in my lifetime I dare say. It is so sad to see a new generation being brought up with hate mixed with their baby food.

Artful Dodger: Ok.. we are getting somewhere at last. Basically what I've been saying all along.

The Palestinians need a secure whole homeland. One with space!! So one or two of their Arab neighbours needs to give some land up, ideally next to the west bank and Israel needs to withdraw all settlements in such area, proper border controls under UN troops control and we might be getting somewhere.

Bernice: Old wounds can take a long time to heal.... But if they can do it in NI then there is hope.

Hurrah!! The UN security council have passed a resolution on the conflict... Thankfully a usually vetoing country abstained.

(V): Subject: Re:hat you bomb the **** out of them until they cry uncle
Czuch: Then you just become another mass murderer like Hitler and the Nazis... And what happened to them in court after WWII?


Well, I am obviously exaggerating a bit to make a point, But let me ask you then.... what is the punishment when one side breaks a peace agreement?

Lets say we both agree to not sneak up behind the other and hit them over the head with a stick... but the sanction for breaking this agreement is to sit in the corner for awhile, or to go without supper for a night, is that good enough, really? But if we agreed that you would be executed if you did it again, well then I am certain that might deter you a bit more?

We have already witnessed how well UN sanctions worked with Saddam.... dont kill anymore of your own people and dont make anymore bad weapons or we will well, we will do something.... hahaha the only thing that works is the threat of major force, and when it is an empty threat, it only makes others think they can get away with it too, thats why the US had to go spank Saaddam, now any other freaks out there know we arent afraid to keep our promices... well unless they think Obama is going to be a UN whimp, but that is unlikely!

but?????......he didnt have any bad weapons.....that was a figment of G Dubya imagination wasn't it.....or did he manage to hide them for a later date? If so I wonder if he told anybody where he hid them....bit late now tho isnt it ROFL........

Czuch: The punishment depends on who it is and who their friends are in the international community. As I've mentioned, Israel have been naughty several times and certain UN resolutions and security council actions have all been vetoed by the USA, therefore stopping any action or punishment even though Israel broke international and UN laws.

It's a funny old world.

Bernice: Well he did use quite a few against the Iranians, though that wasn't exactly punished as Iran was the 'enemy' at the time and Saddam was being used as a 'weapon' against the Iranians by certain western governments.

And I think after the Kuwait business Saddam knew he had to tow the line re WMD's.. or else.

(V): I think when you're a country that has been under attack may times by multiple contries at the same time,sometimes at a 10-1 ratio of manpower,you're entitled to be "naughty" once in awhile.Did you hear about the latest in Italy?

http://mobile.reuters.com/mobile/m/FullArticle/CTOP/ntopNews_uUSTRE5082FY20090109?src=RSS-TOP

Bernice: bit late now tho isnt it ROFL........

Hahahah thats the great thing about it all.... next time we tell some idiot to show us some proof he has destroyed all his weapons or he will face "serious consequence" (thats the UNs words) they will know that if they dont they could end up dead!!!

People talk about the costs of the war etc, but you cannot discount the value we get from future actions we will not have to pursue because of the example we made by calling the bluff of Saddam!!!

Czuch: your president made an ass of himself in front of the whole world, and it is something that will be laughed at, chaffed at, and giggled over for many a year to come :)

Jim Dandy: A step to far, peaceful protests are the traditional tool of voicing opinion. It's not the Jewish communities outside Israel fault.

Ever seen "Don't mess with the Zohan"?

(V): your opinion of "a step too far" might be altered if you lived in Israel

Jim Dandy: Not sure, even in Israel opinion is split.

(V): Opinions in Israel are generally split many ways,that's what you get when you have as large a number of political parties as they do.They are surprisingly united on this stance though,not totally united,but far more than split.