British PM says that whatever the police need to do to stop they riots, they will be legally given. About time. The US goes to that game plan on day one.

(V): Only your criminals have guns.

Is it Christian to kill someone? It's not Christian to murder someone but it certainly isn't Christian to allow someone to be murdered when you can stop it. So you're saying you'd let an intruder kill your entire family rather than shoot them?

(some guy comes into my home, threatening my family, I'm NOT going to put on a pot of tea and day, "come on, let's discuss this." I'm going to shoot.

AND IF I SHOOT it will be like the police shoot. To kill. To hurt my family, the intruder goes through me. And one doesn't own weapons unless one intends to use them if necessary.

Artful Dodger: Worse then what? US gun crime rates?

.. You like the idea that you might have to shoot someone because guns are so common... Is that Christian?

(V): Yes. Rather pointless because things are WORSE in the UK. Good point. And thank you for making my argument for me.

Artful Dodger: It's the UK now and we are not fighting the Scottish, Irish, French, Spanish and other European countries. Kings are not conscripting men to arms.

Artful Dodger: Yes... some do and we'd like to keep it that way.

And please... 16 year old stats are pointless.

... If the robber in the USA see you with a gun and then runs.. You then shoot him in the back. What then?

I'd rather have a society where gun crime is rare than common.

Bernice: The problem in properly assessing a problem is in having the vantage point where all the trouble is occuring. Clearly, it wasn't everywhere, but where it was - it was very very bad. Burning and looting, even ONE private business is bad. If it's MY car that's burning, it's bad. The fact is, there were dozens of fires and assults and hundreds looted. When the police showed up, the looters just went elsewhere and it was a cat and mouse game.

Artful Dodger: yeah but it isn't too much trouble...ask the Mouse.

The English government has effectively abolished the right of Englishmen, confirmed in their 1689 Bill of Rights, to "have arms for their defence," insisting upon a monopoly of force it can succeed in imposing only on law-abiding citizens. It has come perilously close to depriving its people of the ability to protect themselves at all, and the result is a more, not less, dangerous society. Despite the English tendency to decry America's "vigilante values," English policy makers would do well to consider a return to these crucial common law values, which stood them so well in the past.

In 1999 Tony Martin, a 55-year-old Norfolk farmer living alone in a shabby farmhouse, awakened to the sound of breaking glass as two burglars, both with long criminal records, burst into his home. He had been robbed six times before, and his village, like 70 percent of rural English communities, had no police presence. He sneaked downstairs with a shotgun and shot at the intruders. Martin received life in prison for killing one burglar, 10 years for wounding the second, and a year for having an unregistered shotgun. The wounded burglar, having served 18 months of a three-year sentence, is now free and has been granted �5,000 of legal assistance to sue Martin.

Please come to my house. I have a loaded 45 and a semi-auto fully loaded and ready to fire. As soon as you are on my property, I can shoot you dead (and I will). Don't want to die? Don't come to my house and threaten my property or my family. Wanna rob people? Go to Britain, it's safer for the crooks over there. You don't even need a gun!

Sincerely,

US Gun Owners.

In 1994 an English homeowner, armed with a toy gun, managed to detain two burglars who had broken into his house while he called the police. When the officers arrived, they arrested the homeowner for using an imitation gun to threaten or intimidate. In a similar incident the following year, when an elderly woman fired a toy cap pistol to drive off a group of youths who were threatening her, she was arrested for putting someone in fear. Now the police are pressing Parliament to make imitation guns illegal.

In 1987 two men assaulted Eric Butler, a 56-year-old British Petroleum executive, in a London subway car, trying to strangle him and smashing his head against the door. No one came to his aid. He later testified, "My air supply was being cut off, my eyes became blurred, and I feared for my life." In desperation he unsheathed an ornamental sword blade in his walking stick and slashed at one of his attackers, stabbing the man in the stomach. The assailants were charged with wounding. Butler was tried and convicted of carrying an offensive weapon.

In 1973 a young man running on a road at night was stopped by the police and found to be carrying a length of steel, a cycle chain, and a metal clock weight. He explained that a gang of youths had been after him. At his hearing it was found he had been threatened and had previously notified the police. The justices agreed he had a valid reason to carry the weapons. Indeed, 16 days later he was attacked and beaten so badly he was hospitalized. But the prosecutor appealed the ruling, and the appellate judges insisted that carrying a weapon must be related to an imminent and immediate threat. They sent the case back to the lower court with directions to convict.

(V): Fact: Except for murder and rape, it admitted, "Britain has overtaken the US for all major crimes."

As for guns in the UK: "in the summer of 2001, gun-toting men burst into an English court and freed two defendants; a shooting outside a London nightclub left five women and three men wounded; and two men were machine-gunned to death in a residential neighborhood of north London. And on New Year's Day this year a 19-year-old girl walking on a main street in east London was shot in the head by a thief who wanted her mobile phone. London police are now looking to New York City police for advice."

The crooks already have guns.

Unintended consequences of an unarmed populace: Only the crooks now own guns.

"From 1991 to 1995, crimes against the person in England's inner cities increased 91 percent. And in the four years from 1997 to 2001, the rate of violent crime more than doubled. Your chances of being mugged in London are now six times greater than in New York. England's rates of assault, robbery, and burglary are far higher than America's, and 53 percent of English burglaries occur while occupants are at home, compared with 13 percent in the U.S., where burglars admit to fearing armed homeowners more than the police. In a United Nations study of crime in 18 developed nations published in July, England and Wales led the Western world's crime league, with nearly 55 crimes per 100 people."

and

"the 1953 Prevention of Crime Act, which made it illegal to carry in a public place any article "made, adapted, or intended" for an offensive purpose "without lawful authority or excuse." Carrying something to protect yourself was branded antisocial. Any item carried for possible defense automatically became an offensive weapon. Police were given extensive power to stop and search everyone. Individuals found with offensive items were guilty until proven innocent."

welshrugbyfan:

> Declare a curfew and shoot anyone who breaks it.

Didn't the Nazis try that one at some point?

"Well, when the police aren't allowed to use guns." ........... lie.

If more police do have guns.. then more criminals will want guns. DUH!!

welshrugbyfan: That's all very good... but by our law that would be murder and would cause so much more rioting.

Curfew... arrest. Fine... no go zones.. fine. water cannons.. fine. But we don't need an all out war on our hands and the police to be the target of so much more hate then that might be around at the minute.

welshrugbyfan: Water cannons would be enough and lots of arrests.

Its time for the riot act to be reintroduced in the UK. Once read, if the crowd does not disperse, the police have the right to use lethal force to disperse them. These thugs only understand one language. Fine, lets give it to them. Declare a curfew and shoot anyone who breaks it.

Were this same scenario to happen in the US, there would be blood. Some of these punk kids would be dead. Shot by shop owners in the protection of their property. As it is in Britain, the shop owners have no way to protect themselves.

And the government is ONLY considering using water cannons.

Meanwhile, the thugs are looting and burning private property.

Still the Prime Minister says they will only use minimal force.

What a wuss.

Defending themselves with bats
Ethel C. Fenig




So, how are the Brits defending themselves from the rioting hooligans who are having a wonderful time mindlessly burning buildings, smashing windows, beating people, destroying anything in sight? Well, when the police aren't allowed to use guns and citizens aren't allowed to own guns this seems to be a reasonable response.


5000% Increase in the sale of baseball bats on Amazon.co.uk

Yeah, that will work.

Well bats just might work better than what the Prime Minister and London's chief cop have authorized.

David Cameron and the head of the Metropolitan Police have taken the unprecedented step of authorising armed officers to use plastic bullets if needed to stop looters and rioters laying waste to Britain's major cities. The Prime Minister and senior officers approved the emergency powers for "as long as they are needed" to get a grip on the lawlessness which has now spread from London to communities across the country.

The Government also discussed introducing CS gas and water cannon to break up disturbances in future - a move which would end a 180-year tradition of "minimum force" public order policing in Britain.

Are the rioters using "minimum force"? Are bats "minimum force"?

The way Obama operates:

"We have no plan, we aren't working a plan and our plan isn't working."

On the radio they said all the shops in a street got looted except Waterstones, the bookshop. Kinda figures.

Mousetrap: Liverpool, Manchester, Birmingham, Bristol... but as you said...not too much......RUBBISH

I don't think we need this for good police work. Scientifically: "Google Group Members to Use Facial Recognition to Identify London Rioters" http://t.co/56EOicX

I wouldn't treat that lightly, despite I like drama and big movies and pop corn, but when I want to party, no one's around anymore. My trained eye tells me that the problems are completely different than the media hawks around. Fact is, News Corp. is the story that matters on this island.

Artful Dodger:

Mousetrap: on my way

Well all is calm is Stoke, Hanley and Newcastle. I don't blame people for bring over cautious. Lets just hope the folk round here have their heads better screwed on than others who feel it's their right to destroy other people property and wreck innocent people's lives.

Artful Dodger: We need you over here. Come quick!

Mousetrap: I've been a secret weapon of the police here.

Artful Dodger: One of those is enough to stop any riot!

Mousetrap: exactly

Artful Dodger: Yeah I know. It is stupid. Some use it as an excuse to loot. They dont care about innocent people being affected.

Mousetrap: When I participate in riots, I give them one of these:

Bernice: Oh yes there is in London. But London is a big city.
Take a look at the rioting reported in Manchester on tv and you will see one rioter and about 5 police in full protective gear

Mousetrap: well I dont know where they are getting the TV films from then.....surely they can't be staged....there is rioting alright, nothing can change that


not only that, it has spread so far north....innocent people losing property and possessions...disgusting.

Mousetrap: The mentality of people is so odd. To protest violence by police they riot, loot, and burn property of innocent people. Don't they see how stupid their own acts are?

Mousetrap:

The Col: The guy was a father of four, not a kid.

N' it's not just all.. just the spark that set it on fire.

Artful Dodger: They where in desperate search of new shoes.

Artful Dodger: Apparently over a man being shot by police.
But belive me the riots are not happening everywhere. It was said via Facebook that there wasn riots up Hanley and Shelton tonight. I was in Shelton. And there were no riots. I caused more of a riot tonight down my local than there was anywhere else because the bar lady told me to relay on my mates to tell me when last orders was. And I said no. you know I am deaf, you are in charge, I do not relay on my hearing mates tom tell me, you should tell me lmbo! That was the most fighting in Stoke-on-Trent all night I bet!

Mousetrap: They may be painting a happy face to it. We've had civil disorder situations in the US and they are often downplayed by officials in order to give the appearance that the govt has things under control.

What are the rioters so upset over?

Staffordshire Police
We have spoken to hundreds of people tonight across the county about false rumours of disorder - Your local police are out on highly visible patrol speaking to members of our community, keeping them safe and informed.

The situation across the county is calm and officers are responding incidents and patrolling as normal.

Bernice: There has been some riots yes but nothing the police cannot deal with. Most of it is rumour spreading via facebook and not rioting on streets.

(V): Is this the first time anyone has been shot by a cop in London without being armed?
If it happened here, it would be news, but.........

The IPCC has reported that Mark Duggan did not open fire before being shot.

"Mr Duggan, 29, whose death sparked the first riots in Tottenham, died from a single bullet wound, an inquest heard.The police watchdog said ballistic tests showed "no evidence that the handgun found at the scene was fired".

BBC News understands firearms officers discharged their weapons in the belief there was a threat to human life. Their guidelines allow them to open fire in such circumstances.

Mr Duggan, a father of four, was shot in Ferry Lane, Tottenham, north London, on Thursday, as specialist firearms officers attempted to make an arrest. A key witness, the driver of the minicab in which Mr Duggan was travelling, has yet to give his version of events. He is understood to be in a severe state of shock.

Investigations by the IPCC show two shots were fired by a Scotland Yard CO19 firearms officer.

**************** Tottenham is in London for those outside the UK.