pentejr: It is true that we use words in everyday English in ways different from their strict logical meaning.

Yes, one of the most famous is the following answer to the above question that can have 2 contradictory meanings!
Pesron-A: "Don't you like it?"
Person-B: "No."

So does Person-B likes it......? (No need to answer)
These problems and at general all bad things and misunderstandings occur due to the fact that people don't use a pure, strict Mathematical way of describing things and with pure deductive logic.....


First, it seems to me that the determining factor as to how the game should be set up should not be which way is easier on beginners but which way is correct according to the rules of the game. My understanding of the rules of backgammon is that PlayBunny is correct, though admittedly, I am not an expert on the game.

Your understanding of the rules of backgammon???? What rules do you have in mind?

The problem is that unlike what happens with Chess where there is an international organization(FIDE) that makes all the official rules and everyone follows them, at Backgammon there is no such thing! So anyone can follow his own rules....There is not a better resigning option or a worse one. This is just subjective....At Chess of course is again subjective but since there is a standard international orgnization, we agree to follow it and problem is solved!

Thad: It all depends on the context
So there is no exact meaning of "i have a pencil".
And it should be used with words like "exactly" or "at least"....

Nice to discover another part of completely useless statements, as they are all the adjectives in English and also in Greek language too.....

alanback: As you yourself said, it's indefinite; it doesn't imply "one" or more than one.

I think in that case since it is indefinite it implies the exact same thing you said it doesn't imply! Since it is indefinite(and obviously not zero) it means one exactly pencil, or 2 exactly pencils, or...., or an infinite number of pencils.

It is because it's not off topic at all as we obviously discuss about Backgammon....

alanback: So what you said is not correct. That means "a pencil" is NOT the opposite of "no pencil".....
Now things are clear! Please not make it complicated again.....

Czuch Chuckers: Oh no! Don't destroy me again! Please decide how are you using your own language....

Since "a pencil" is the opposite of "no pencil" then "i want/have a pencil" = "i want/have at least a pencil".....

Odd to me, but you English speakers know better....

grenv:
OK if you all English-language-people have learnt that the use of "a" makes the statement: "does he have a pencil?" the same with "does he have at least a pencil?" then i didn't know that or seen this before.....

But really it's a matter of definition again.
It is not obvious for me to define the:
"I have a pencil."
as:
"I have at least a pencil."
instead of the more logical:
"I have exactly one pencil."

Oh in that case the current way protects newcomers or not enough knowledgeable people from losing points with the aforementioned way....
But of course this doesn't make the current system of resignations good. The system Playbunny described is far superior.....

BIG BAD WOLF
Speaking about newcomers or beginners:
An opponent of mine lost 6 points because he resigned a match with cube at 2. He would by all means NOT lose any gammon or backgammon and he would just lose 2 points. But instead of 4-2 the score went to 8-2!!!!
I don't know if you call this protection of the newcomers!
Also if you will say that he may not knew this and now he knows, he would resign hopeless positions ONLY after he bears off some checkers, i have to say that this would bring another already mentioned problem: Why to wait to bear off a checker to resign? A resign offer of a single game, would be much better and FAST way!

grenv: Since you are being pedantic I will have to disagree with your pedantry.

You are welcome....


If you've taken 3 men off, then you have taken a man off. No need to add words like "at least"

Well English is not my native language but i thought "a" = one". That is "here is a pencil" = "here is one pencil". Even if we agree that "a"="one" the problem is not solved. The problem occurs to the different ways we see the "if a man is born off then...."

You are taking the statement:
"If you take a checker you will not lose a gammon" as:
"If you take at least a checker you will not lose a gammon"
while in all mathematical papers and general papers is:
"If you take exactly a checker you will not lose a gammon"

So by "a" what we mean? "Exactly" or "at least"?
Meaning "at least" would make no sense since a single "a" can't mean something more than the number of the object it describes. So why it should mean "exactly"? It doesn't! But in all papers i have read so far the word exactly is used silently to describe that "a man" means "exactly one man".
You may not agree with that but it doesn't matter anyway since it is a matter of different interpretation of statements so it's a subjective matter....

"and you haven't borne any off" is not needed since you would have passed the first test and not gone to the else

Correct! That's why i inserted To show that the word "correct" is not accurate to describe what i did. It was not a precise correction but just a better way to make things more readable.

You are correct. I will say the reason:
Suppose we have different assumtions A,B,C, with B = (D∩A') with D another assumption and C = (A'∩B') and with A∪B∪C = Ω, that from each one we assume X1,X2,X3 respectively, with the following easy way that i tried with my correction to show:
A=>X1 , B=>X2 , C=>X3
So if we have a f that belongs to A then:
-if f belongs to A we have that X1 is correct.
-if f belongs to B we have that X2 is correct.
-if f belongs to C we have that X3 is correct.
so we list this as:
1)A then X1 occurs.
2)B then X2 occurs.
3)C then X3 occurs.

Playbunny used the other equivalent way:
-if f belongs to A we have that X1 is correct.
-If f doesn't belong to A and some other things independed from A occur, we have that X2 is correct.
-if f doesn't belong to A or B we have that X3 is correct.


and we list that as:
1)A then X1 occurs, else
2)D then X2 occurs, else
3)A'∩B' then X3 occurs.

It is equivalent since if 1), that means A, is not correct then it is correct the A'.
So since D is valid then D∩A' is valid too. So X2 would be valid also.
If both of the A or B are not valid, so the A'∩B'; would be valid, then the X3 would be valid also....

So the equivalence of the 2 ways is obvious. The "problem" with the second is that we don't have immediatelly the several discrete cases, although the procedure of the second way is good for programming as we gain some time by not re-checking cases....

BIG BAD WOLF: Good point but:
-Since they can handle doubling cube they should also be able to handle resign too. If you find that resign procedure PlayBunny described, is tricky and bad for newcomers, then you should find doubling cube tricky and bad also, since it's very easy for a newcomer to be confused and accept a double in a bad position.

I'm back to the Backgammon discussion board!

playBunny:
Well you are correct on this.... The procedure you described is the only one should occur! Resign single,gammon,backgammon and then ask the opponent if he accepts that. The current way is bad.....

This is quite wrong as far as I'm concerned but the rules are that 1) if you have taken a man off the board then you'll lose a single, else 2) if you have any men in your opponent's home table or on the bar then you'll lose a backgammon, else 3) you'll lose a gammon.

Let's modify all these to be correct(added things are with bold letters):

The rules are that 1) if you have taken at least a man off the board then you'll lose a single, else 2) if you have any men in your opponent's home table or on the bar and you haven't borne off any men then you'll lose a backgammon, else 3) you'll lose a gammon if none of the 1) or 2) occurs.....

WhiteTower: I hope it will be detected in Plakoto that, if both sides have a single man covered in each other's starting points at home, the game is an automatic draw, as there is no way to finish the game.

Yes this is correct but lets wait first Plakoto to be implement........:-)

Also from the above i conclude that you continue playing the game (Plakoto) even after one side has hit the "mana"/starting point in home board.
And this is the best i think, as i know the other Plakoto-variation that when the "mana" is being hit then the game automatically ends.......

Jellyfish .MAT format is the best of cource! For specification of it, don't try, i have looked in the past for one, without success.....
But it's very easy to understand the way it works, which is very simple, by looking some games. I will try to write the description of .MAT format if you are lazy.......

Fabien Letouzey! Perhaps it surpasses the "King" Richard Lang.......

I should unfortunatelly add "with an awful playing strength AI opponnent"..........

No! This is the 5%

The main reason is that while at Backgammon there is the "home board", the "opponent's home board" and the rest board and 2 general different strategies, the one we are behind in race and the other ahead, in Fevga there are 4 different boards that we have to combine the strategies considering all these 4 boards each time, we also have many different strategies that also change on every stage on the game........

The first time anyone will plat it would feel a little lost in the desert. But after he get the feeling he would put it on his favourite games.....

Here........

I can guarantee that you will not have a good impression when you read the rules and you will say that it's a bit complicated, but the truth is on the other side........

Portes = the same Backgammon it is here on Brainking with the addition of having gammons and backgammons.

Plaloto = A nice game that i yet find a bit boring.....

Fevga = One of the most interesting games, that requires a very deep strategical play, which is much harder to play it correctly.......Very fun to play also. I suggested the addition of Fevga, and i believe that if this game spreads in the world (USA?) it would start replacing Backgammon, not to take its place but to stand along with it in the top.....

Fevga = a must for Brainking!