SL-Bosse: That would be a great name for the next tournament!

From: Fencer (show this user's messages)
Date and time: 5. November 2009, 15:23:23
Subject: Bug #1959 has been updated
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Title: Espionage reveal bug
Comment author: Fencer
Status changed to "not a bug".

No, that's how it is played here. The order of moves matters.

dAGGER: I think we can name this bug as "The Italian Disguise"

I had to mention it, the game is so critical now that it would be cheating not to say anything.

happy hermit: Me too. It was quite a surprise to see dAGGER's piece, one that he probably really did not want to show. An Italian disguise :)

Chaos: Agree, it has nothing to do with the skill involved in playing the game. I have already listed it as a bug, saying that the piece movement order should make no difference whether the recon is captured first or last within the move.

Celticjim: I hadn't realised that. It does explain all my defeats. :)

I can't be the only one, as dAGGER too has just fallen foul of this.

Do you suggest we leave it as it is, or get it changed (if possible) so it doesn't matter the piece movement order with a move

dAGGER: Yes our game. I did leave you a message saying that your piece on g4 is now revealed!

Just to let you all know, I have just reported a bug in one of my games.
If you make a move that captures a recon and in that same move, also move a '?' that would touch this recon, ensure that you take the recon first, otherwise the '?' will be revealed as it was seen before it was taken, even though it is the same move!

happy hermit: I have so many disguises, I am having trouble following them all. Perhaps you should stand and fight, and uncover them for yourself

dAGGER: Yes, whilst all my disguises are wearing thin against you, that '?' you have on F3 has not been tested yet

Chaos: Like all aspiring espionagers, just practicing the art of disguise and blending in with the back ground. In Scotland, wear a kilt and paint your face blue, in Holland wear wooden shoes and ride a bike; now you are prepared to deploy some subterfuge.
Just like that undetected '1' pretending to be a '5'

Chaos: That breaks my wooden shoe

Chaos: Nou breekt mijn klomp!

Nothingness: Ah, thank you. That's because I practice the Dutch proverb: "An ounce of patience is worth a pound of brains." Patience being an important virtue of any exercise in espionage :)

Celticjim: Me too

Celticjim: Disappointingly, I have no brains!

Chaos: You are doing a fantastic job.

I was trying to shrewdly compliment you by suggesting that your approach was judicious and diplomatic, favoured traits of a moderator. Referring to our recent game and your ruthless annihilation of myself, I was hinting that there are also some sharp claws and teeth behind the ball of fur. I am sure however, that neither Eric nor myself, would have to face the Chaos Creature.

Although an attempt to create some light hearted banter, there is a serious note in Eric’s original posting, which is that both Jonaron’s and Quiet Man’s playing styles are worth studying.

Naturally we will support you.

happy hermit: Evidently as seriously as she takes her game of espionage, though she is not so diplomatic in her games, in fact quite ruthless as she recently demonstrated to me!

happy hermit: I believe you have just been judiciously "moderated" for your mischievousness

happy hermit: I was throwing in one other into the equation and also to tease another ;)

happy hermit: Yes, but one seems to be good at extinction chess the other not

Celticjim: Missed that one Jim.
Rushing your opponents so as to cause them to make a mistake

Celticjim: The smell of victory will bring fast moves; possible defeat long periods of thought; imminent defeat either fast moves or long periods to bore one’s opponent! The latter is a perfectly acceptable strategy, though not necessarily sporting.

One of the great things about this game is the element of psychology. I can’t think of any other online game, other than poker, where this manifests itself to such a degree.

Just like in poker, it pisses the hell out of everyone when you wait until the last second to make your bet. Then emotions come into play, followed by mistakes! And a mistake in poker costs...

Jim, a win today, next week, or next month is still a win. Don’t turn a certainty into an improbability!

redfrog: Thank you for all your hard work moderating this board. Well done Chaos for volunteering! We will try to make it an easy job for you

Styleone: Some other noteworthy exceptions, such as yourself, Sandoz, dAGGER, The Other Me, Tian Xian. Sadly all pawns and tied up in the Small Fast tournament.

Chaos: That will surely put your head in a spin

happy hermit: poor Nothingness, he too has worked hard on his ratings!

Tenuki has over 1000 games on the go, and we are just in the opening moves. Probably finish at the end of next year! If you look at his ratings though, he is at or near the top of many strategy games! So I'm not underestimating him!

happy hermit: Okay Eric, I'll take you on. But you won't be giving me any points if I win (1 or 2 perhaps). You really need to do something about your 1851 rating, so good luck and you might grab yourself a handful

It took me many games to earn a BKR over 2000 and #1. I have never turned down an invite, so if anyone fancies their chances, just send an invite. All I ask is that you move once a day (on average).

lukulus: Ah yes, they are well known. Sorry misunderstood.

lukulus: Okay, second after you

lukulus: Thank you. Guess that sums it up well "It's a matter of luck"

And anyone starting out in a new game type would be well advised to aim to play the top players (and win) in their 1st four games.

Think I will trash my SL-Mark account, create a multi nic, beat myself four times, play 21 easy players, then play once every 6 months to remain visible! Try and reach my 3000 BKR then

http://brainking.com/en/FAQ?ht=21


4.2) I play a game with an unrated player. How does it affect my BKR?

Each player has a BKR although it is not displayed. Players start with BKR = 1300 and the BKR is not shown until he/she finishes at least 4 rated games. Furthermore, BrainKing displays estimated values of your particular BKR change below the selected game board, depending on the game result (win, draw or loss).

lukulus: A further thought. Why would the rating system add 400 points to the opponents rating if the opponent has a BKR of 2100? It does not do that for beating lower rated players. Furthermore, everyone supposedly starts with a rating of 1300. That makes it a 1200 point increase!

lukulus: All understood.
But isn't it flawed that if you beat the strong player in your first 4 games you get a huge BKR rating, but if you beat them in your 5th game you only go from 1700 to 1800 say?

Chaos: That's all fair enough given we have established BKRs. I understand how all this works.

But is it not frustrating for those working hard on their provisional BKR to proceed up the rankings only to see someone leap frog to the top?

There are many instances where players are on a provisional BKR, have a dozen plus wins (some against very strong players), no losses and sitting on a BKR of say 1800. Then pop, someone goes right to the top on 4 wins. BKR is also important to these players!

Chaos: Yes :)
I must say that I am not too put out by all this, as Jim says below it is only a game!

But it is slighlty frustrating, and I am sure for many others (not just in espionage), when you have worked hard to climb up the ratings to have someone (not their fault) leap frog to the top.

The BKR ratings are important. Having a tight BKR range at the top promotes competiveness and moral. However, where someone has leapt in with an extremely high BKR rating, causes abuse (defend rating by only playing low rank players) and creates less competiveness and frustration amongst others.

Sometimes that new rating is unassailable (a 500 point difference) , and I can't really blame someone from defending that position that they were luckily awarded (by playing only weak players).

I believe that anyone near the top of the ratings should have earned it over many games.

As Lukulus says the rating will drop rapidly if some losses are incurred. However, this is only true if those losses occur soon after the initial provisional BKR has been awarded. After about 10 games, the BKR delta is much less sensitive.

Celticjim: I have brought the subject up on the Feature Request board for wider discussion. Perhaps Fencer will make a tweak in Version 3 that he is currently working on.

The flaw is more than the abuse.
The ratings work very well after the initial provisional BKR has been awarded, it is how the initial rating is derived that is often specious.

There is a big difference between inaccurate and wildly spurious.

Here is a real example from earlier this year. You can find many similar examples across all games.

Game 1 won, opponent BKR between 1500 – 1600
Game 2 won, opponent BKR between 1400 – 1500
Game 3 won, opponent BKR between 1700 – 1800
Game 4 won, opponent BKR between 1500 – 1600

So what initial provisional BKR should be awarded?
1600 – 1700 Largely inaccurate, as we have information on a 1700-1800 win.
1700 – 1800 Inaccurate, but best we can do with information available.
1800 - 1900 Largely inaccurate, no information to validate this.
1900 – 2000 Grossly inaccurate, absolutely nothing to suggest this.
2000 – 2100 Wildly Spurious!
What was awarded? A figure half way between 2000 – 2100.

You decide, flawed or not?

Dark Prince: It takes 25 games as Vikings states to get a rated BKR.

Interesting you don't consider receiving a provisional BKR rating of 2500+ on just four games flawed. I know many on this site that would beg to differ, especially as one can then play and win 21 easy games and obtain an established (unrealistic) BKR.

There has been much debate on this subject in the brainking board.

Celticjim: Yes, congrats to Nuno.

I agree, the BKR rating system is one of the very neat features of this site. However, it does wildly exaggerate ratings in the first few games. There are quite a number of examples in other games where a new player has won the 1st four games (not necessarily against any strong player) and suddenly has a BKR of 2500+!

It does settle down soon after this and a 1500 BKR player might only gain approx 50-100 points from beating a 2000 BKR player. Considering that one always starts with a BKR of 1300, then that was a ~1000 points from that win!!!

Not taking anything from Nuno, but I do feel that the BKR ratings is flawed in the first few games. BrainKing simply says it is not a rated BKR and that only rated BKRs are truly reflective of ability. In other words, this anomaly is being ignored.

SL-Bosse: Yes, but pawns will need to be released from #1 (i'm sure Fencer happy to help here), and 3 pawns are advancing to round 2, so they won't be able to play!

Also, I don't see #1 round 1 finishing this year, given the pace of play in section 1!!!

Time control needs to be different. Culture of moving here is very different from IYT as some play numerous thousands of games at one time!

Dark Prince: Nothing much discussed on the freaks board. This is the main board that everyone posts to.
Regarding fellowships, this is not a concern unless you want to play in team tournaments. There has only been 1 team espionage tourny to my knowledge.

Dark Prince: You simply enter the tournament. On BK people create their own tournaments, rather than them being created by the site. On the tournaments link, what you see are a list of open tournaments, the tournament name and who created the tournament. Most tournaments (like IYT) have multiple games types and you choose the ones you wish to play in. Not all tournaments have all game types and some are dedicated to one game type only. NB. with a pawn membership you may only enter 1 tourny.See posts below.

The League will occasionally create a specific espionage tourny and all are invited to play. The link shows a tourny already under way.
Sabotage Leauge - Small Fast Espionage - #1

You can also find games under waiting games. You can reduce the list by applying filters to this so so you can't see the Ludo game for example. Or choose new game and it will go into the waiting room.

There are also team touraments, which you play as part of a fellowship. Here is a link to one under way:
Jan 2009Cynophobia(Fast Espionage)(NO DAYS OFF)

Nothingness: His user name is *creepingdoom*

Chaos: LOL, yes it's Tony. I sent him a mail and directed him to this board. He was only on BK for a short time. Guess someone must have pointed him to BK :)

I see *creepingdoom* has joined us!
Welcome.

Chaos: I will respect your 'rear of secrets' then

Ok, I'll send you an invite, no resignations or BKR, and I'll choose one of the achievement setups too, but won't tell you which I guess you would prefer open fast if you go with 'front line hero'

Chaos: Yes, that's a good point. It does make it possible to play fun tournaments without impacting BKR. What about one where all entrants must have a set up with both 'first line hero' and 'rear of secrets' at the same time, no resignations allowed

Membership is not that expensive. Bought mine with a bonus, so two years for price of one!

Still play in one ladder on IYT and keep plugging brainking. Managed to convert Sandoz and some are still thinking. Hopefully 'The Saboteur' will join us here. He said he would check it out. Sabotage on IYT is nearly dead now, and the numbers playing in the ladders are dwindling.

Nothingness: I remember a small tournament back in the good ol' days of IYT when we still had the boards, can't remember who organised it , and about 6 - 8 partook.

The tournament was small fast but the placement must have been created using the random set up! It was a 'gentle man's' agreement that no tweaking was to occur. This was one of the best fun tournaments I played in and learned lots having to start from a forced undesirable position.

Unfortunately won't work here, as one of the neat features of this site, BKR, would prevent this from taking place.

AbigailII: Spoil Sport