Its definitely veered towards chess discussion!

Stevie: FEEL BETTER

How was that for a shout?

EdTrice, Computer vs. Human could be an interesting topic on the Debate board.

EdTrice:

Thetype of game does not matter: chess, checkers, Gothic Chess. A good player with the proper motivation using this technique will never be defeated by a computer, and he can also beat a computer in this fashion.

If you mean ONLY correspondence games then:

At Chess: a good player with the proper motivation can beat the computer (meaning the top one's) rather enough times, can be beaten enough times and draws will occur most of the times.......

At Gothic Chess: a good player with the proper motivation can beat the computer (meaning the top one's= G.V) most of the time, can be beaten rather seldom and can draw few times.........

At Checkers: i have no idea about Checkers...........

If you mean long(classic) time controls games then:

At Chess: ONLY the top players in the world can beat the computer (meaning the top one's). And i mean not in a single game out of 10, but in a match of 8 and more. Right noe the battle is equal .

At Gothic Chess: a good Chess player can beat with great difficulty the computer (meaning the top one's= G.V).

If you mean short or blitz time controls games then:

At Chess: NOBODY in the galaxy can beat the computer (meaning the top one's and not only). It's already difficult to take just one game out of 8 or more, so no thinking about winning..........

At Gothic Chess: a good Chess player can't beat the computer (meaning the top one's= G.V). He can take some games or draws but beating it is too tough.......!


At fast time controls, like game in 10 mins or faster, Vortex kills me. At time controls slower than game in 2 hours, there is no program that can win against ANY strong willed player of skill.

Do you mean of course Gothic Chess program and not Chess program.......


This has been well documented in the chess playing community for decades. Strong correspondence players still outperform computers.

The word still is critical. It shows that the gap is closing.......In my opinion we may be to the point that computers are starting to surpass us at correspondence also. Perhaps not yet, but it's close.....

come on..surely this does belong elsewhere by now????????????????

Take a look at this game, between ChessCarpenter and myself, played on the CowPlay.com website at the end of 2004:

http://www.gothicchess.org/gotm_2004_10/game.htm

Now fast forward to my 14th move as black.

14...h5 looks to be an error as it lets my knight
be taken. It looks like I gave up my knight for "no reason".

This was a strategic trap to bait the white
archbishop to attack in a sector of the board where it would soon be out of play and useless.

While still down material, I was able to open up the center and get his king in trouble. No matter how he decided to deal with my advanced pawn, taking it would spell disaster, and not taking it only delayed the invevitable.

This type of "look ahead thinking" is far beyond the search horizon of a computer. In fact, if you replay some of ChessCarpenter's moves as white, Gothic Vortex will make similar moves, taking the material (my knight) without understanding the "big picture".

Vortex thought white was winning from move 14 onward, and I would play that position against any program on the planet and be able to win it.

Again, I mention this because some people's posts on here seem to think I use Gothic Vortex when I play on here. Nothing is farther from the truth.

At fast time controls, like game in 10 mins or faster, Vortex kills me. At time controls slower than game in 2 hours, there is no program that can win against ANY strong willed player of skill.

This has been well documented in the chess playing community for decades. Strong correspondence players still outperform computers.

I have read quite a few posts about Sumerian, the S.M.I.R.F. program, the topic of the prize money, and the numerous comments about "cheating".

First, I am happy to pay Reinhard the $25 for winning his section. If you divide this by all of the hours he has put into his program, this is really pennies per hour.

Second, I get the sense that some people think programs are really invincible. This is clearly not the case, even if you let them think for days on end.

I have played a Janus game against Caissus where I had a mate in 27. It took me about 6 hours to go through it all and verify it before I sacrificed first my knight, then my janus (Archbishop).

I play on two boards. One has the current position, the other is how I analyze.

I play every move of every game down to the endgame before I make a move.

You get much more insight into the game that way than any computer program can provide.

Thetype of game does not matter: chess, checkers, Gothic Chess. A good player with the proper motivation using this technique will never be defeated by a computer, and he can also beat a computer in this fashion.

In my Gothic Chess game against WhiteShark, I was able to announce mate in 31. It required sacrificing a Chancellor for an Archbishop, then losing a Knight for just a pawn very early in the game!


I could let Gothic Vortex search for 6 months and it would not make these moves.

Just something to consider.

Skyking: Its been discussed on the pond board Skyking..take a peek

Does Fencer have plans to have a pond ratings or something like that soon. ?

anastasia: I saved this site into 1 of my F-Keys as well. When I reset my password, I clicked on "remember this" box. When I do leave & come back, I 'll just click on Log In & I'm automatically at the mainpage.

Look at the address bar and copy paste the address of the game page here. The game ID is contained in it

one of my games im playing (hyper-backgamon)

when ive moved there are no boxes underneath,you know the ones?..msge,notes,move to next game....nothing at all so i cant play it...no game # so i cant tell fencer so he can look.
its only this game can anyone help me here?

anastasia: If you type www.brainking.com into the GoTo box, it should take you to the login page. At least it does for me. (I normally come to the site through an F-key, which brings me directly to my main page).
Then once you are on the login page, tell it there to remember your info again. You will be all set until the next time you clear your cookies!

anastasia: if you click on log out I think youll find the login page. I believe it's the same for webtv ppl as with PC? Not 100% tho

I cleared all my cookies to make things go faster on my msntv,now I can't find how to automaticlly login,help please.Is it on my settings page and I'm just not seeing it,lol? Thanks in advance and I LOVE THIS SIE!!!! :)

if u r going to take that out of UG then pls give every1 the site where u can find cheating programs. Then BK could be know as the program cheating site. hehehe
:o{P

Have tried to do searches to find programs to help me play the games. I like to play but, guess I'm to dumb to know what I'm doing. So if people want to play a person that they can know for sure is not cheating. Guess every1 knows my name now.
:o{P

I think it is silly to even go by ratings on the net.. so many peeps out there are so serious at being in the top spot.. they will go to extremes.. heck.. I play for fun.. if I lose.. (which I do often).. then I lose.. Big deal.. the conversation and challenge was fun..

To those that do use programs to aid in their game.. Why bother coming to a site with real players?? Why not play your program.. *shrugs shoulders*

BIG BAD WOLF: I don't think so.

redsales: I would not delete it - you would be surprised about how many would then use outside programs just because "it's not against the rules".

redsales: What is easy to prove is that I have written a program by myself. It would not make a lot of sense if someone will use a bought one, but you have no webcams on both sides to control what the opponents really are doing. Therefore it would make sense to encourage players to speak frankly on their way to produce good moves. If they would not be honest with that, they would mainly betray themself.

If you are interested in seriously testing, please send me a message with your ideas on that.

Fencer: or deleted. There is no sense in having a rule that cannot be enforced.

Sumerian: I have no suggestion, since it is unfair to single you out. Besides, even if you say you are using a program, no one can prove it so I think any talk of violating the user agreement is spurious and I support you in this regard. If you need a low 2100 ELO rated chess player to help you play test, I will do so gladly.

sLaMdAnCe: I'm sure he and a lot of others use progs to "playtest" their ideas.

i agree i would have wanted to know as well and i wouldnt have read his profile either

yes, but then they may not have been aided with a program,i'm nto exceptionally bothered as im not great at chess and would probably have lost anyway, it just would have been nice to know.

if summarian wasnt in your group then someone else with a bkr almost as high would be in his place (thats the way the players in the tournament are sorted)

Stevie: i think that it also would of been better ot know he was playing with a computer, i didnt read his profile and therefore didnt know

Sumerian was in my group.

Pafl: *nod*

Hrqls: Good point. I think everyone agrees on defining it as using an outside PC (or Mac :-) program, created by someone else, for the purpose of gaining advantage in one particular game (which does not include "gaining advantage" by playing against the program & thus improving your general chess skills).
This way is correct, I believe, and Sumerian is thus out of the category (which is correct too, I believe).

Looks like the paragraph needs to be better defined.

is it cheating to look in previous games of yourself and use that knowledge in your current game ?

is it cheating to use a table of chances of 2 dice (as i know some people in backgammon, although you can easily do that in your mind as well)

would it be cheating to have a chessboard next to your computer, setup the game you are playing, and test-play several moves ahead ?

is it cheating to use notes ?

all this can be considered using outside 'programs'

,,but the anser is that i have declined every invite not only from you..nothing personal..until now when you said to my intelligent posts
..kidding...have to find "Dancing Queen" for my daughter now...take care

Andersp: you and i used to play alot..then for some reason you decided you didnt like me anymore, we never had a prob to my knowledge.
But you've declined evey invite i've sent you in the last 6 months.
Why?

sLaMdAnCe: thats beat you in what?

Purple: What's it matter if the game is over? A little late to get help, ain't it? It certainly isn't cheating by any definition of the word that I know of. It's the same as looking over a game you've already played. One of the things that the Chess playing machine do is used old games and data bases to look up and compare a position in the case that it's been played before. That to me is cheating, but that is allowed in tournaments where programs are permitted to play. This is one thing that makes Sumerian's type of program different from a lot of others is that it plays on the fly and just wings its moves. It's still a machine, but it is a different approach to programming.

Andersp: MiGht i SuGgESt iNsTeAd oF tRyiNg tO bAIt Me, tRy To bEAt Me.

sLaMdAnCe: You have noooooo idea how nice Antje is
Purple Im not saying im right..just curious about Fencer's opinion

Andersp: LOL. I'm not saying you are wrong at all but I'm suggesting you save some of the outrage for people who are programming and keeping quiet about it.

Andersp: wOw.
aNtJe iZ So nICe.
hMMmm..gO fiGuRe.

Andersp: lol
i pLAy 2 gAMEz hERe.
BG & hYpEr.
Go LoOk aNd sEe My tRiCe LiKe ReCoRd.

Purple: Is there an engine to make "smileys" so Slam could increase his word supply?

There are "learning" programs that analyze completed games and pin point mistakes after the game is over. How do people feel about that? Is that also cheating?

Stevie:

sLaMdAnCe: another honest person

Andersp:

Purple and Walter: ..little i know about

Andersp: Er, ah, I thought it was full of engines, machines, and programs now? No?

Andersp: It already is.

Andersp: I'd be willing to bet there's already some on the market now. Lots of programs play lots of games. Even this Windows© machine that I use came with a few games. Somewhere around here I have two game programs ChessMaster5500 and EA Bridge. That fact that I can't beat the ChessMaster5500 is one of the reason I don't play Chess on this site. Not much use in it is there? And it's an older version. I imagine their newest version is really strong and fast compared to the one I have. The Bridge playing program is disappointing because it plays so poorly! Apparently games that require deduction, bluff, and intuition are a lot harder to program than games that have perfect information in them as Chess does. I have read in magazines that current Bridge playing programs have greatly improved their play and features since the one that I own was released. As for Backgammon, I wouldn't bother making one on your own. It won't play all that much better than a decent player even it played the game perfectly. It'd take a long time to show that it played better than you do. You ought to take up Dark Chess. As far as I know there aren't any programs in use for making the moves, plus the game cannot be watched by an outsider until the game is over. And even if your opponent gave his password to a friend to help him make a move, his friend would only see your opponent's side of the board and he'd be in the same boat as your original opponent. The game has a little luck to it and a weaker player actually has a chance against a strong player which is never the case in regular Chess.

One thing this whole argument seems to have missed is the fact that none of us are directly playing a person. We're all using machines to play the games with. Just wait until the programs can make conversation too. :(

Sumerian: Vielleicht sollen wir Deutch sprechen? kidding :) Dont misunderstand me please..i told you that you absolutely should test your engine..BUT,,isnt there a risk that BK soon is full of "engines" if Fencer allows one?