Artful Dodger: How can anyone possibly tell who is a Muslim terrorist?  The Middle Eastern groups recruit from disenfranchized people all over the world.  They often get people of different races & ethnic backgrounds to do their dirty work these days. Profiling is not done out of "political correctness".  It is not done because it is less than effective.

Artful Dodger: "Now he signs a bill that will essentially force people into buying insurance."
see...this is how I understood the bill in its current form. but jules claims employers have an option...I'm not sure.

Artful Dodger: Can you name which some? The groups in the Uk seem to be very vocal over what's happening and (as I said) helping the UK police and security forces in this troubled time. Many other countries Muslims are helping as well I hear.

Artful Dodger: No we are talking about terrorism. Something the UK and Europe have been dealing with for decades in some form or another.

Artful Dodger: Ohhhh yes they have.

Artful Dodger: ... It matters to us in the UK. As UK citizens have been blown up or attempted to be blown up by more then Muslims. Muslims did not invent terrorism

We've had several white supremacists attempt or actually kill people in the UK. The IRA splinter groups have been blowing up and are PROMISING more in order to try and restart the Northern Ireland troubles again... over 3500 deaths over 40 years that war took.

They are NOT boy scouts. They don't care if the person is a civilian or not.

Übergeek 바둑이:   Good posts!  If it happens to you, how many other non-asian were unfairly targeted for profiling?  One negative experience of incompetent profiling can signify that there are many more.  If profiling is so effective, lets just go the next step - put all middle eastern Muslims in internment camps or "ghettos" so we can have better "control" over them.

The British foreign office is warning those UK nationals travelling to Israel to only hand over their passports to anyone including Israeli officials when absolutely necessary. The risk (especially with old pre biometric passports) of fraudulent use by Israeli secret service is considered high after the recent assassination in Dubai. Even though after a similar incident in 1987 the Israeli government promised not to fake UK passports again.

Those involved in the assassination are now on Interpol's wanted list.

GTCharlie: Look don't ... we have enough trouble with white supremacists, splinter IRA groups and the BNP stirring it. We are kicking out with help from the Muslim community any extremists, or them being arrested for hate crime. It's going to get so confusing for the poor security services over here!!

That's why everyone gets scanned.

Artful Dodger:

White Supremacist Timothy McVeigh carried out the Oklahoma City Bombing aided by Terry Nichols. Should we profile single Caucasian males of Irish Catholic descent? What about potential white supremacists, say people who look Germanic or with blond hair and blue eyes? After all, we don't want another Oklahoma City bombing. When was the last time profiling along these lines occurred and a Caucasian person was given a hard time at an airport or office building?

I can understand the logic behind profiling. However, the problem is that racial profiling targets individuals based on a physical stereotype. Italians must be mafiosi. Latin Americans deal in drugs. Blacks are all gansgstas who are really good at basketball. Russians are either communists or gansters. Now we translate those stereotypes into "forensic profiles" and target individuals in those communities.

Here in Canada the a newspaper did a study and found that black motorists were three times more likely to be stopped by police officers, even though blacks make up less than 3% of the population. Anybody can see that there is something wrong because between profiling and racism there is a very fine line.

Don't even think that al qaida isn't smart enough to realize profiling tactics.. they will easily find Anglo Saxon recruits or black Americans .in fact wasn't that Christmas bomber black?

Artful Dodger: And of the European Muslims? Who are 2nd or 3rd generation but still (thanks to bad policies in the west & those would pervert Islam in order to spread hate) ... what then?

That's why everyone gets scanned.

Plus, false passports can be gotten.

Artful Dodger:

> I wouldn't decide. I'm just an average Joe. But experts in this area know what to look for. Profiling can be, and is, beneficial.

I suppose profiling helps when the looks of a person dictate their behaviour.

A few years back I travelled to South Korea. I went through the airport in a connection travelling to Asian countries. I am Latin American and I have tattoos on both my forearms.

As I am walking through the airport this "security" moron starts hassling me. How much money I am carrying, what is my destination, give me your passport, etc. All based on my looks. I am a chemist by profession and taught college courses in chemistry. I suppose profiling is beneficial. It helps some half-wit moron decide who is and who is not a criminal based on looks alone. I wonder how many Japanese tourists he stopped that day!

Of course, every time I have travelled to Europe they "lose" my luggage. They simply flag it for searching for a few days and I always end up without my things for a few days. Single Latin American male with tattoos travelling alone. Must be a drug-dealing murderer of sorts. I should just tattoo "scarface" to my forehead.

Profiling is beneficial, specially when the person doing the profiling comes with their own racial prejudices, stereotypes or just plain old-fashioned paranoia.

In the meantime, my travelling experience is crap and that is why I refuse to visit the US as a tourist in spite of my family begging me to go.

Artful Dodger:   How would you decide which Muslims were Middle Easterners, or would you have to target all dark skinned Muslim?  (serious question, not rhetorical)

Artful Dodger: That would be who? Americans annoyed with the USA or some religious group, etc..... As most terrorist attacks on the USA homeland have been committed by Americans. If you go back 10-20 years then most of the terrorism happening was by Europeans in Europe, those unhappy with the way the world is and of those who won't listen to them.

.. 99.999%+ of those who are middle eastern are just normal everyday Joes. That's why the policy here is everyone gets scanned.

Artful Dodger:   How do you tell Albanian Muslims from the "average" white guy?  How would you feel to be a member of such a profiled group?

Artful Dodger: what about Bosnian Muslims, and Chechen Muslims or Albanian Muslims?? light skin , blue eyes

http://www.upi.com/Daily-Briefing/2010/03/10/Jihad-Jane/UPI-41871268228371/
how about the latest "jihad jane"?

Artful Dodger: Israel is in the doghouse at the moment re the UK government.. for using fake UK passports in the murder of one of their targets.

The scanners are being brought into service as a means of not having to frisk people. Everyone gets scanned is to be the rule here I believe.

(V):  That's what I understand also.  More small businesses will be able to afford insurance for their workers under the new system.  Large business will pick up a lot of the tab.

Bwild: ONLY if you choose to have health insurance for your employees and in the current type of market. You will not be fined for having no employee insurance, but hopefully with a BIGGER FREE market, where like with car insurance, etc you can shop around .. .. we have sites that compare the market here for you on car/home insurance, etc. .... .... and hence get cheaper insurance policies.

You at least have a viable choice, instead of no choice due to cost.

The alternative.. private health insurance as the primary health care system which has been pricing health insurance out of the range of small businesses for a long time, with no real control over pricing.

I hear that a prescription for paracetamol can cost $20 dollars via a docs... strange for something (if true) that I can buy basically anywhere for less than 50c

as a business owner I know that as it stands now I will not be able to hire any new employees and after perusing some of the guidlines how to afford the ones I already employ. I can only take so much out of profits, before my business becomes capital starved. I can only raise prices so much until I price myself out of the market. So my choice is to downsize, which has the effect of raising the unemployment rate, and having fewer employees means I am not producing the same amount of goods. In this bill I am to pay 65% of the insurance cost of the employees that I have and I will receive a tax credit of 35%. Big deal I still have to initially put out the 65% but after the dust settles I am still responsible for 30%. That is the portion of my payment that I do not receive reimbursement. That comes straight off the bottom line. But there is more. If I choose to downsize and lay workers off and they draw unemployment, my unemployment insurance will go up because I have people drawing unemployment. The rippling effects of this health care bill will be tidal waves in the future as we small business owners try to comply, within the bounderies of this bill. More empy shops will line the street here in Osage Beach. Unemployment will rise. If anyone that voted for this bill had actually studied the economic impact just within there district then they would not have voted for this bill. Thank You Ike for voting no! Overall the american people did not want this, but we were not listened to so beware to the democrats, who said yes, for I can see come next election you standing in the ever growing line of unemployment.

(V): but in the real world...thats not how it works...it forces a raise in expenditures lowering the already slim profit margins.

Ferris Bueller: So basically, small businesses are penalised by the current health system for being small. They may want to provide health insurance, but the cost is higher than medium/large firms pay thanks to extra charges by brokers, etc... on average 18% more per employee.

So, if small businesses have access to a greater market then the cost goes down, the % of small businesses that provide cover would be higher.. hopefully.. as the cost would be less.

Makes sense.

Artful Dodger: Studied statistics at college to 'A' level standard. That's why I'm not a big fan of 'polls' unless there is a BIG sample and a BIG % difference.

Artful Dodger:   That's one statement that we can agree on.  They cite the polls when they show agreement w/ their position & demonize them when they don't.

Artful Dodger: I think you need something like the Tax Payers Alliance. No party allegiance, just the desire to expose government hogwash.

Bwild: exempt from paying towards healthcare costs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ao5V66m5FaA

Will make it clear.

Artful Dodger: The error use to be quite bad, sample sizes usually being small. Not sure now if they have been able to work out the error % to a smaller figure, but it could be as high as 10%.

They are just for show.

(V): exempt from what? an excerpt from a speech means nothing to me, as I rarely commit them to memory. maybe if you were to show us the context of your meaning, it would be a little more understandable.

Bwild: Guess the memory of the writers forgets what caught the Republican wanna be pres in the talks in TV.. small business are exempt. McCain tried to score a point with this and got wedged by the reply that small business are exempt, big businesses pay.

Guess they rely on people not having a memory.

heres whats being said in my area regarding yobamas health care plan.
http://www.lakenewsonline.com/opinions/letters_to_the_editor/x1838107489/Lake-View-Independent-business-assn-disappointed-in-health-care-vote-lauds-Skelton

Artful Dodger: Unfortunately, they usually don't do enough to give a reasonable accuracy, the error margins seeing the closeness (in some cases) is to much for the polls to considered accurate.

Unless you can find a poll with a low error margin (5% or less) Do they have ones with that low error these days?

Artful Dodger: I find polls that say more like the idea. I guess it depends on who, where and when it was done.

can you believe that this "comic" has had as much, if not more influence on our modern day language?

It isnt any wonder that kids can't spell/speak correctly...

A 80 billion pounds a year industry.. chocolate. Just where does the cocoa beans that makes one of our favourite treats come from. More importantly.. who harvests it?

Free market trading equating in child slavery. Yet despite rules and regs in most western countries banning the importation of goods made from slave or prison labour, most of the cocoa bean trade is tainted. Fathers, uncles, etc selling children.

All done in the name of profit and low cost products.