(V):

Logic is a good tool. But it's not a perfect tool. You can start with a solid premise, proceed with flawless logic, and still come up with a wrong answer. I suspect you might argue with the word 'wrong', but this has been tested and proven to be true long before I was born. A wrong outcome can usually be attributed to a flawed premise, but not always.

" Pure philosophical logic knows nothing and yet knows everything... "

Oh come on, admit it... you pulled that one out of a fortune cookie.

Artful Dodger: interesting,that is what I said about them originally

Artful Dodger: well that wouldn't apply to Americans would it as there are no slaves any more....hmmmmm?

The Col: I like those verses. Speaks well of Paul and the Christian faith. What do you have to say about them?

Iamon lyme: Logic does not dictate that. Pure logic excepts a certain uncertainty in things of the world, yes/no/or/and\or.. otherwise some tools like the one you are using now cannot work. Pure philosophical logic knows nothing and yet knows everything...

Is this sure fire cure for headaches the one you use?

(V): Mints are good. I found one on my pillow once at a ritzy hotel. Did those guys who went to Japan make any more of those? If not, then logic dictates that the mint I found on my pillow had to have been the very same one they made in Japan.

By the way, if you suffer from headaches, I know about a sure fire cure...

Iamon lyme: But they are not our options. they may be your options.. but others may have more than two. Nor does it mean they are relevant options.

Yes, computers are tools, but the mind that created them was not. It was alive... unless, are the aliens telling you different??

The Col: No, my "rebirth" wasn't as dramatic as that. But since there are no coconuts growing over my bed, one falling on my head would have definitely caused me to sit up and take notice.

Iamon lyme: Or the tool? Or God not knowing that which is, just believing. Like Constantine when a solar event made him (through the help of an advisor) decide to worship the Son of God rather than the Sun?

Or should we fear the tool? Like when the American manufacturers were approached by two US boffins who'd designed the first robotic arms because of sci fi films of the era.... the two guys went to Japan and made a mint.

Ephesians 6:5-9

5 Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. 6 Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart. 7 Serve wholeheartedly, as if you were serving the Lord, not people, 8 because you know that the Lord will reward each one for whatever good they do, whether they are slave or free.

9 And masters, treat your slaves in the same way. Do not threaten them, since you know that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no favoritism with him

(V): " who says there are only two options? "

I don't know.. who said that? I believe what I said was 'so here are our options'. I'll have to go back and look, but I'm pretty sure that's what I said. Just because I was focused on what I believe were the relevant options, that doesn't exclude the existence of options that are not relevant.

I still don't know why you think I was talking about worshiping a shrine. A shrine is built to house something that is worshiped, the shrine itself is not built to be the object of worship. The evidence of what I actually said is what you put in your own subject heading. So lift up thine eyes, and gaze upon what you put into your own subject heading.

" Just showing a mark of respect to someone who helped save lives and 'invented' the ideas behind modern computing. "

I see. So it's not to honor the man, it's just a mark of respect... ?

On another point, is it your opinion that computers are NOT tools?

Iamon lyme: Describe for me your rebirth.Did a coconut drop on your head? was it an epiphany that roused you from sleep in the wee hours causing you to sit upright in bed in a cold sweat?

Artful Dodger: Remember when Obama slammed people who "cling to their guns and to their religion"? I thought it was the guns he mostly had a problem with. Apparently not.

(V): " No-one mentioned worshipping a 'shrine' "

That's true, because I didn't say anyone was worshiping a shrine.

Artful Dodger: I still don't know what the rationale behind walking weapons across the boarder was supposed to accomplish. We wanted drug lords and other criminals to have these weapons because... ? I can't get past the because. It's like, say, you have a headache, so someone tells you to put your head in a meat grinder and turn the handle, because...

Doesn't matter 'why' you should do it, because you shouldn't do it... it's a bad idea. They've been trying to get Holder to talk about this for over a year, but the guy has been able to stonewall them for, what has it been, 18 months now? And barely a peep about it from the major news outlets.

I know what Holder should say. He should say, "Well, it seemed like a good idea at the time."

The Col: Me thinks the protestation is a bit much and over 'played'.

How about that Fast and Furious scandal?

The Col: BTW, one small correction. I don't give as good as I get: I give better.

The Col: That's not playing the victim. It's answering a question. You do know the difference, right?

Artful Dodger: Personally speaking,I think you give as good as you get , no reason to play the victim

Iamon lyme: There are several people who have given me a hard time over it but basically it's driven by one person. Apparently she's not here on BK any longer but likely she's still behind the scenes. It is funny as the jokes on them. Anyone who has seen my posts over the years know that my knowledge on science has a low threshold. I can't even follow your posts on science. YOu'd think that would be enough of a clue.

JungleBurger: Thinking he exists makes no sense. Just as believing God exists.

I thought the idea was to just 'know'.

As to God's image.. mmmm not male (as The Jewish say.. the sex of God is just in relation to his relationship with us) .. not a man. The image part is describing our ability to be and rise above being unthinking creatures.

as many philosophers say, surrendering does not mean to stop thinking, but instead to see your thinking and to let it go.

Iamon lyme: Neither is the Bible... it's just a tool book, the cross.. just an icon, the ten commandments... just words. Yet many people who say they are men (or women) of God keep saying these are sacred. We must do this.. because the Bible says so..

But if so, then they have in fact abandoned the first principle of being Children of God. Freedom to be an unmoved mover

No-one mentioned worshipping a 'shrine'... or as commonly known, a statue or sculpture. Just showing a mark of respect to someone who helped save lives and 'invented' the ideas behind modern computing.

Like with war cemeteries.. shall we take all the acknowledgements down given to those who have fallen in defence of others?

"So, depending on whether you believe in God or not, here are our options... we can worship a God who created us in His image, or we can be the gods who create tools in our image."

who says there are only two options? This is a world of colour not of monochrome as rightly pointed here...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6gthQuogUA

Good film by the way..

Artful Dodger: "As you can see, my games are down to 8 and I've played here a lot less. Coincidentally, you showed up shortly after my regular attendance here declined. The theorists here will use their logic skill and make their usual conclusion."

I assumed there were maybe two or three people here giving you a hard time over this. Are there more than that? Other than getting a few strange pms last year, I haven't heard about this except from you. Are you hearing about it at other boards, or in private messages?

"BTW, I'm not even sure I know what he means by biological mechanics."

I don't know either, but it is laugh worthy. I think maybe he lost track of his straw men, and what they are supposed to represent. His 'crazy notions' of what Christians believe is fun to watch. If what he meant by biological mechanics is what I think he meant, then... naw, I'll just wait for him to explain it. He said it, he can explain it.. maybe.

Iamon lyme: oops, correction:

I said [ I didn't distinguish between what I wanted to believe and reality.. which is another way of saying I wasn't being honest with myself. Of course, atheists don't do this because they are honest intellectuals who need our help to understand how dangerous it is to not believe as they do. ]

What I meant to say was [ I didn't distinguish between what I wanted to believe and reality.. which is another way of saying I wasn't being honest with myself. Of course, atheists don't do this because they are honest intellectuals, and we need their help to understand how dangerous it is to not believe as they do. ]

I really should look these over BEFORE sending them, instead of after.

Iamon lyme: Nah. I quit a long time ago. Interesting. You must be you then as I don't smoke. I just fart ... a lot.

well, off to the fishin' hole......cya!

Artful Dodger: yeah, the fishing hole..

you read my mind..

Say,do you smoke? Mind if I step out for one? I'll try not to inhale too deeply, if you agree to cut back on.. hhhhhm, seems I know less about you than you thought you did..

Ok, back to the fishing hole

Iamon lyme: I think you just did.

Artful Dodger: No, wait a minute. I may have been gone six months, but I still remember you telling me that I know more stuff than you do. I told YOU that you're smarter than me, so if you say I know more stuff then who am I to argue? I remembered that because of it's flawless logic.. it forms a perfectly flawless circle.

So there...

did I just tell myself off? Oh well, if I did then I probably deserved it.

JungleBurger: What do I care if I haven't read the books.

Do you mean, what do I care what C. S. Lewis would say if I didn't read his books?

Care about what? Sorry, need more info to understand your question.

Iamon lyme: Well, maybe you're me and I"m you. If that's the case, I'm smarter than you. And since I'm smarter, then I know a lot about Fast and Furious. But since I don't know a lot, then I"m maybe not you. Unless you don't know a lot either then I probably am.

If you're confused then that proves you're me.

The Col: Yum in lots of ways :D I see a recipe board here :)

Artful Dodger: Shorter? How could you know you are shorter than me if you aren't me? And how do you know I'm not bald? Who are you really?

Oh crap, now I'M becoming confused. How do we, I mean I, oh crap.. how are YOU going to untangle this?

Iamon lyme: "I haven't read any of his books".

What do you care if you haven't read the books? :)

Iamon lyme: I'm partial to chicken, but whatever floats yer boat

The Col: Thanks for the warning. Maybe JB doesn't know that... I still say it sounds like a vegans answer to the hamburger. You know, a hamburger with everything, but hold the meat patty. Actually sounds like a tasty meal. I could always heat up a meat patty later in the evening.. after dark.. in the light of a full moon.

Iamon lyme:

JungleBurger: I haven't read any of his books. I don't know why, because everytime I see him quoted I like what he has to say. I also liked the Narnia movies, and saw part of a play based on the Screw tape letters.

Artful Dodger: I was hoping that hadn't changed. I enjoyed being you before I left to be me for awhile, but it's not easy being me so it's nice to be back where anything I say can be blamed on YOU!

Fast and Furious. What a story of twists. Nixon revisited. And Carter.

Sorry I messed up post below still trying to use to this new machine. :)

Iamon lyme: Hey, what's with the nic name anyway? Never mind, since I'm you, I already know. Which isn't true. I don't know because I"m you, I know because you told me. And no, I don't talk to myself. But good to "see" you again my friend. Seems like I just saw you this morning while shaving. But that guy was bald. And shorter. So it couldn't have been you. Unless.......aliens....

Iamon lyme: There is a utube video called Jungle Burger.A bunch of marching penises.....and it kinda regresses from there LOL

Monochrome head-and-left-shoulder photo portrait of 50-year-old Lewis
C.S. Lewis aged 50
Born Clive Staples Lewis
29 November 1898
Belfast, Ireland
Died 22 November 1963 (aged 64)
Oxford, England
Occupation Novelist, scholar, broadcaster
Genres Fantasy, science fiction, Christian apologetics, children's literature
Notable work(s) The Chronicles of Narnia
Mere Christianity
The Allegory of Love
The Screwtape Letters
The Space Trilogy
Till We Have Faces
Surprised by Joy: The Shape of My Early Life
Spouse(s) Joy DavidmanArtful Dodger:

JungleBurger: []_ [[]] []_

My nic says I am only me. Don't let the spacing confuse you. If your nic is none of my business, then how can something as personal as a belief in God be any of yours? hhhm?

sorry, but I don't assume every friendly face I see rests upon a friendly head.

Artful Dodger: you drive a cab?

Übergeek 바둑이: the bigger question is, What does being "created in God's image" mean? Forget about if it's true for the moment. What is meant by the statement?

Iamon lyme: No, you're still me. It was nice to see you back which is why I stopped by to say hello. As you can see, my games are down to 8 and I've played here a lot less. Coincidentally, you showed up shortly after my regular attendance here declined. The theorists here will use their logic skill and make their usual conclusion. BTW, I'm not even sure I know what he means by biological mechanics. I know something of car mechanics though. ;/