Starsky: Better ask Jules, he started the conversation on gravy.

Mousetrap: It is getting stupid, a teacher told not to say "I'll pray for your child" as she'll lose her job... people told not to wear a cross or they will lose their job...

A pox on Political Correctness.

Artful Dodger: Has to happen once a year!!

(V): phew you both left it late..lol

Snoopy:

Artful Dodger: did you remember that it is a "Festavus for the rest of us"?

Artful Dodger:

Artful Dodger: " I just acknowledge what is: For many (most) Americans, Christmas means the birth of Jesus. Saying that Christmas is a holiday that celebrates the birth of the baby Jesus"

tell that to the millions of kids who think its the day Santa comes!!

Czuch: Okay, now there is witness to some accomplice, who helped this guy get on the plane without a passport..... CIA for sure, and points again to an inside job by Obama

Czuch: well if you wait long enough Jules will have the TRUE story for you.....he gets all the facts first hand remember LOL

Artful Dodger: Dont you get it yet???? Neither Bush nor Obama had to react, because they both were the ones to orchestrate the attacks themselves!

Artful Dodger: The guy from huffington got it wrong and changed his blog.. Is your point from that still valid?

And if it is the CIA.. then that speaks of a systematic government within government that has done it's best to make USA citizens frightened and care more about power then your country.... get rid of the CIA then.

I'm sure lots of people going by the CIA's past won't miss them... like the Russians do not miss the KGB!!

I heard on the news tonight, that the leaders/organizers of Al Queida groups in Yemen are some Guantanamo Bay terrorists who were released to Saudi Arabia and "rehabilitated" and are now back to the same thing. Let's keep releasing these people!! Yeah! Makes a lot of sense.

Artful Dodger: Yes, and "terrorism" is too inflammatory. The term is now "man-caused disaster".

wouldnt it be a clever thing for them to do? blow up an aeroplane, thereby killing many people from DIFFERENT countries....not just america? Upsetting a wider range of peoples?

rod03801: I heard on the news and read via several on-line newspapers that the Yemen authorities have been after help in dealing with possible terrorist cells, but such calls for help have been ignored. Yemen's Foreign Minister Abu Bakr al-Qirbi has said that the country is not getting sufficient help from the West to tackle al-Qaeda. They have their own troubles dealing with warring factions and need support from the USA, UK and EU.

That of those who are possibly active in Yemen, two were from the bay, yet an estimated 200-300 terrorists are active in the country. No mention they were leaders, just active members of the group.

(V): Only 2???? Thats 2 too many

Czuch: If that is so true... why the waste of money and resources on Iraq that could have gone on fighting and destroying the terrorist network worldwide??

The billions spent on a war that was not necessary and now the real war on terrorism is suffering. Saddam was not a terrorist or had any links to Al-Qaeda.

(V): so what? Two different fights, Saddam caused us more of a distraction alive than taking him down ever did.

And the point is, that once you have them captured, letting them go makes zero sense.

Czuch: sounds like some UAV predators or reapers are needed in Yemen

of course, I don't see this ending in the next 20 years

Czuch: The only distraction I can see Saddam causing is if Iran invaded, the rest.. Well, embarrassment over him being an ex lackey of the USA and Tony Blair hating him.

How many people died since he was basically fenced in v his regime being taken down, and how much in resources have been diverted from eradicating Al-Qaeda? As to two different fights... he wasn't one, he was an easy victory and pointless one... and from history we have many examples of the problems of fighting on two different fronts.

As to them being let go... I at the moment do not understand what happened. They were in nick, and somehow they were released. I don't see the US authorities being unaware of this.

I guess more info will come out over the next week, etc.

GTCharlie: it will if the funding to the terrorists can be cut.

Did someone say Gravy? LOL

Starsky: hey , did Santa bring you what you wanted? LOL

Bernice:

(V): What amount of endless resources were used to "fence" Saddam in? I still believe that taking him out was worth the cost, and that the cost to fence him in would have ended up greater in the long run

Czuch:

> I still believe that taking him out was worth the cost

What was the cost? 150,000 civilians killed by violent death; another 500,000 killed as a result of destroyed hospitals, water treatment facilities and other infrastructure; 4,568 non-American coalition forces soldiers; and 4,345 American soldiers.

Here are some nice quotes:

"According to a Congressional Budget Office (CBO) report published in October 2007, the U.S. wars in Iraq and Afghanistan could cost taxpayers a total of $2.4 trillion dollars by 2017."

"As the total passed US$450 billion in 2007, the cost for the Iraq war reached approximately $1500 per person in the United States. If the Iraq war were to wind up costing 1.9 trillion dollars, the cost would be over 4.2 times higher ($6,300 per United States citizen.) This would put the expense at $25,000 for an average family of four, or $32,000 per family if Afghanistan is included."

Getting rid of Saddam was worth every dollar spent, and every human life lost. Now we can recover the cost in oil, and let Haliburton, Exxon and Chevron keep the profits.

I guess Americans can happily accept spending 32K per family of four, just to let oil companies reap the profits from the war. Now, where are the WMDs? Who is responsible and who pays for manufacturing false intelligence?

Übergeek 바둑이: ...and the CBO knows what the total cost would have been keeping him "fenced in" for who knows how many years, and then his sons, and then who knows, maybe some many years down the road, we end up having to go after him anyways, what is that total cost in lives and money?????

My guess is thsat we got off cheap!

BTW, you must be against our recent health care bill? Its funny I dont hear the media or liberals calling Obama a liar over this one, even though the CBO(yes the same trusted CBO that you just quoted) has said that their liberals' numbers are simply lies!

Czuch:

> My guess is thsat we got off cheap!

You go and tell it to the families and all those dead people. I am sure they will agree with you.

Czuch:

> BTW, you must be against our recent health care bill?

I think that while the Obama administrations intentions are good, the health care bill will probably fail. If it fails, it will be because the Republican party cares more about protecting the business of private insurers than about the lack of adequate care for the poor. Well, the US is the only modern industrialized country without universally available health care. I think it bothers Democrats that the US is behind the trend in other industrialized countries.

The next 10 years will prove whether private insurers can keep up with rising healthcare costs. As the Baby Boomer generation ages, the pressure on private insurers will increase to the point that some of them will go bankrupt. It is at that point that state-run healthcare will probably come to the forefront, as a bailout for a failing private system. I expect a full bailout, as it happened with the banks last year.

I doubt Obama's healthcare bill will succeed, but his successor in 7 years will be forced to do something about it.

Übergeek 바둑이: I will go tell all the families who have no dead people, I am sure they will agree with me too!

You can never win this debate, since there is no way for you to prove that the losses would not have been greater had we left the status quo

I know you are smarter than that argument, really? You can always ask the family of a dead person, and they will not agree they like their son dead..... and I can agree on one point, that it is a lot easier to say a cost was worth it, when it isnt your familys life that was part of the cost.

But my point is still valid, we could have spent untold money and time keeping Saddam fenced in, and who knows, still end up having to take him out, and maybe it would cost a lot more if done down the road... maybe saying we got off cheap is wrong, but saying that we got off "cheaper" this way than any other way, how can you say I am wrong?

Übergeek 바둑이: lack of adequate care for the poor. Well, the US is the only modern industrialized country without universally available health care.


I am not sure you stated your point the way you meant to?

We already do have universally available health care.... even non citizens can walk into any emergency room and never be turned away services because they dont have the ability to pay for it.

as for the poor having adequate care.... I think if you are very poor you have a better chance to get you health care paid for you than any other income groups.

Übergeek 바둑이: If it fails, it will be because the Republican party cares more about protecting the business of private insurers than about the lack of adequate care for the poor.


I disagree.... I think it will be because republicans care more about doing something right than what the democrats are willing to do. I live in a state with a couple of the more liberal republicans, who side with democrats way more than I would prefer, and they have never been ones to tote a party line just for that sake, yet they have not been able to back this latest health care plan.


Doesnt it bother you at all that Obama won the election basically because he called for a change in the way politics were run, and more bipartisanship, and openness and all that happy horse crap? This health care law would not take effect for 4 years, whats the rush to pass it like this anyway?

in this town there be uproar
why shouldnt the British people be allowed to stand on the street and welcome our fallen hero's home

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/wiltshire/8437658.stm

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1240988/France-tops-list-best-places-live-world-fifth-year-row--Britain-languishes-25th.html


Looks like you have more problems than you care to admit!

You can go on and on about our supposed infant mortality ranking as some sign about the US over all, but seems you need to take a look in the mirror before throwing more stones

Czuch:

All I can say that the list is published by "International Living Magazine". It seems like a reputable publication. I guess the average peasant in the mountains of Uruguay has a better life than the average citizen of the UK!

Czuch: well who would have thought Australia would have been number 2?
Somebody sure knows how to BS about things don't they?

Übergeek 바둑이: Canada # 9?

I guess we find a way to muddle through even with thousands dying in the streets waiting to see a doctor

Czuch: they got it all wrong and are very bias

Snoopy: ROFL

Snoopy:

Artful Dodger: was going to ask you before if that was the wrong board for your post when i saw it on the tournament one

Artful Dodger: new glasses?
the politicians do it for votes...same as they spend billions of dollars every year provideing unwed/divorced mothers with state aid,medical support, and free legal council. not only do they do this, they write new laws to make it very hard to comply with state requests.
why not equal representation?
if a terrorist who attempts to kill can be afforded equal representation, why not hard working tax paying americans?

just saw on TV what a disastrous year Obama has had LOL

Bernice: lol... I wouldnt call it a complete disaster.... he and cronies like him have awoken the average person against their so called "progressive" agenda

Czuch: well I guess that is a good point LOL

Bernice: Now the dems have lost their super majority... and a democrat state like Massachusetts has voted a republican senator to replace Kennedy????


Hey AD, quit acting like a prom girl, and get in her and respond to this......

Artful Dodger: when it comes right down to it...most repubs are no better, maybe even worse, when it comes to corruption and lobbyest loyalty

Artful Dodger: so whats the point of "left" or "right"? why not just vote for people who are in touch with their constituants?