(V): You are moralizing, and not really saying anything about the legality of business practices. Technically, it's illegal to have an underground economy that avoids regulations paperwork and taxation, but when government makes it impractical to do business legally then underground economies will thrive, according to the same principles of supply and demand that have proven to work in sanctioned business practices.

When government limits it's mandate to ONLY governing, and keeps it's hands off business except when laws are violated, then those underground economies shrink to accomodate already established illegal activities such as prostitution and drugs and illegal gun running (Fast and Furious)... in other words, the "thou shalt not steal" sort of laws designed to protect people. But if government gets itself involved in truely illegal activities as we've seen in petty dictatorships, then it's anyones guess what can happen next... and it's usually not anything good, except maybe for the petty dictator.

The only reason our nation (as well as yours) was able to become very prosperous as quickly as it did was because there were enough people acting on solid moral principles. You might want to believe it was for other reasons, but the connection between moral values and a nations safety and prosperity has been proven by history time after time after time... which to my mind means after several years of letting ourselves go, so to speak, we have put ourselves in the position of losing more ground than we have gained.

The last four years has been like a doctor treating a guy with an cut on his finger by breaking his legs and cracking open his skull. I think Obama has easily broken all past records of how much damage one president can do in four short years... and he couldn't have done it without the help of our major news organizations and the Democratic party machine... a puppet cannot stand up and walk around and mouth words all by itself.

Iamon lyme: So if a company through lack of regulation supplied you with contaminated water you'd be ok with it? It's happened in the past in the USA!!!

"The only reason our nation (as well as yours) was able to become very prosperous as quickly as it did was because there were enough people acting on solid moral principles."

Not really.. alot was at the end of a gun and/or bayonet. Taking lands and resources that did not belong to our nations based on the principle that it was their for the taking. Millions of natives died through the march of God fearing Christians out to make as much profit for as little cost as they could.

... It's recorded in records.. Resources to the civilised world... guns and bullets to keep control in foreign lands.

eg.. If the companies exploiting Cuba had not done so with such disregard for the locals... Would Castro have risen to power so dramatically?

"and it's usually not anything good, except maybe for the petty dictator."

So why has our nations supported so many in return for ore and crude oil?

(V): "So why has our nations supported so many in return for ore and crude oil?"

If dependence on foreign oil is so bad then why do liberals want us to remain dependent? We have enough untapped oil here to become independent of any foreign oil. So what's the story here (V), are you for the liberal agenda or against it?

"If the companies exploiting Cuba had not done so with such disregard for the locals... Would Castro have risen to power so dramatically?"

So Castro was actually revolting against US companies... but if aliens from outer space had gotten involved to protect US companies like Hasbro and Pepsi Cola then Castro would have still revolted and taken over the US securities and exchange commission's oversight committee chairmanship and positioned himself to go on from there to rule Cuba.

"... It's recorded in records.. Resources to the civilised world... guns and bullets to keep control in foreign lands."

So I guess that means you are for gun control, to limit individual gun ownership so as to insure foreign forces will meet with no significant resistance from the locals. What do you care if the locals are armed and able to protect themselves? How does that impact you, or in any way create for you an intolerable impaction with no relief in sight?

Iamon lyme: the story is that if your country relied purely on internal stocks you'd run out of cheap oil quickly. Your country consumes more than it can provide itself on a reasonably sustainable level. Everyone knows that I thought.. maybe you are an exception

"So Castro was actually revolting against US companies."

Who were using Cuba as a virtual slave state.. I presume you don't want to face upto that fact by your reply.

"So I guess that means you are for gun control, to limit individual gun ownership so as to insure foreign forces will meet with no significant resistance from the locals."

No..... I was commentating on how much of the 18-19th century land gains were gained through taking lands. Especially in Africa.

"The ordinary man isn't required to pay 40% to 70% of his income in taxes."

wow... you really think people at the top do that... if you do, I'd have to say you are very naive.

"Other than yourself, no one said anything about free enterprise with no rules."

So.. what regulations would you keep? Be clear for once if you can.

"What safeties did you have in mind, or are you asking because you don't know?"

Not being sold products that are underweight, false advertising, knowing that the goods we buy are upto standard... simple things like that.

"I weary of my own ramblings"

ditto, it'd be nice if you dropped some of the ham acting

(V): "Other than yourself, no one said anything about free enterprise with no rules."

[ So.. what regulations would you keep? Be clear for once if you can. ]

Very well, I will clearly state for you here and now that I said nothing about "free interprise with no rules". You added that bit about "with no rules" to it... that did not come from me, it came from you. Do not expect me to continue commenting on your responses to straw men. When you are able to read without adding your own bits here and removing things there, maybe then we can have an adult conversation.
Maybe...

Iamon lyme: so is this the giant pot calling a small kettle black thing? Because you seem to have many preconceptions about what people who don't think like you think. ... stereotyping it's called.

Now.. what regulations were you referring to in this...

"Technically, it's illegal to have an underground economy that avoids regulations paperwork and taxation, but when government makes it impractical to do business legally then underground economies will thrive"

"The US has over the years discovered enough untapped oil to live very comfortably and for a very long time, without needing to import oil from anwhere else."

Ok.. recent developments (since I last saw the figures) in oil drilling (fracking) are going to increase production. Yet... you still have a shortfall now of over 7 million barrels per day, estimates for production increase (Citibank forecast) say that by 2020 you could be producing 13-15 million barrels a day. Still at current usage levels far below what your country consumes.

.... if it wasn't for the cost of crude going up, it wouldn't be profitable to use fracking.. crude must stay over $75 a barrel to make it worthwhile. Yet one concern is mentioned.. will it cause contaminated water from the fracking to enter the ground water that ends up in your taps?

Is this ok? Do you concur?? Or are liberals (whatever that means to you) going to get blamed for everything?

(V): [ Now.. what regulations were you referring to in this...
"Technically, it's illegal to have an underground economy that avoids regulations paperwork and taxation, but when government makes it impractical to do business legally then underground economies will thrive" ]

You really do have a one track mind. I wasn't referring to regulations nor rules nor off shore accounts nor anything else you seem to wish limiting the conversation to.

I was merely referring to a fact of life. Underground economies can and do exist, either because they deal in illegal activities (theft, drug and gun running, prostitution, extortion, etc.) or because their existence is a natural reaction to over taxation and over regulation that restrict rather than encourage otherwise acceptable free trade practices. My focus is NOT on what are generally accepted to be illegal activities, but rather on naturally emergent underground economies that come about due to heavy handed governmental interference in day to day LEGITIMATE business activities.

If this is confusing, then all you really need to take from this is (and here I go quoting myself again) --->

---> "...when government makes it impractical to do business legally then underground economies will thrive."

Again, I am NOT referring to any particular rule or regulation. All I am saying is "...when government (any government) makes it impractical (for private citizens) to do business legally (and by impractical I mean difficult to the point of not being able to effectively engage in business) then underground economies will thrive."

If there is a need that cannot be supplied, or supplied well, through a government sanctioned (government approved) economy, then usually what happens is an underground (not government approved) economy will naturally emerge.

That was my point. It had nothing to do with any particular rule or regulation... nor did it have anything to do with aliens from outer space, nor the Easter Bunny nor Santa Claus nor the one religion on this planet that bothers you so much you feel compeled to rag endlessly on and on about it even though but especially if it has nothing at all to do with what is being discussed.

Iamon lyme: Like what? An example that gives weight to your argument would be nice. Otherwise it's just a lonnnnggg sound bite.

eg advertisers on torrent sites designed to illegally share copyrighted material. The companies advertising are 100% legit, yet they are supporting pirating. I'm not talking about sharing a little music... but movies, software and games. Which many companies are looking to have blocked and downloaders, etc in court.

Another could be the illegality of marijuana here in the UK. It is illegal to possess or grow or sell it.. yet 100% legit UK companies are allowed to sell the seeds as 'souvenirs' or 'ornaments'... even in shops on the high street.

.. being a prostitute on the streets is not illegal, johns get arrested but not the women... Yet it's illegal to run a boudoir.

It can be confusing how the law works. Sometimes they do get it wrong, or as I've shown above contradict itself in it's application.

See, examples can be found.

(V): [ the story is that if your country relied purely on internal stocks you'd run out of cheap oil quickly. Your country consumes more than it can provide itself on a reasonably sustainable level. Everyone knows that I thought.. maybe you are an exception ]

If I was a liberal then yes, I would be an exception to the rule of not telling anyone about how much oil we could be getting from our own sources.

And yes, all of the oil (every bit of it) in the whole wide world would eventually run out sometime in the future, but not nearly as soon as we have been told. After liberals restricted the drilling of oil and the building of new oil refineries in MY country, they then pointed to dependence on foreign oil as their reason for promoting other energy sources... many of which would be coming online in the future anyway as technology continues to naturally progress. But instead of letting free market forces and the natural progression of technology run it's course, liberals want to be in control of that process themselves.

However, in the process of gaining control over this for themselves, they have managed (as they always seem to do) to gum up the works and slow down that very progress they wish to take credit for. They can't be content with simply letting it happen, they feel they must make it happen.

I don't know where you get your information, but I suspect it's from sources commited to not telling the whole story and for reasons I've already explained. The US has over the years discovered enough untapped oil to live very comfortably and for a very long time, without needing to import oil from anwhere else. The reason we are as dependent as we are on foreign oil are the roadblocks and restrictions liberals have put into place. If those restrictions are lifted, along with restrictions against building new oil refineries, we could become just as independent as any other country that does not restrict itself from tapping into oil in areas that belong to them.