Kevin, thep roblme is, a 13 by 13 board for pente does NOTm ake the game completely different-- it affects many games not at all, and some games it will affect dramatically. This is not how a good variant should work!

And yes, I think I haev stated, verbatim, about ah alf a dozen times that the 13 X 13 board is acceoptable for web TV users, but only for that reason. None oftheo ther reasonns have merit, and there is NO reason why the web TV users should play without the restriction!

And, although I acknolwedge that the 13 X 13 is neeeded for web TV users, that doesn't make me less fruistrated with its existence.

Again, the 13 X 13 board was cerated in error by IYT, and that is the ionlt reason anyone even knows of it. If it never had been created erroneously by IYT, and someone suggested it now (for a reason OTHER than web TV users), everyone would say "Huh?? NOw why would you want to do that? what wiould be the point?"

Well, just because people became familiar with an erroneous board doesn't mean we should continue to play with it so that those players ahve a board they are familiar with an d recognize.

But of course, we neeed it because of the Web TV users.

What is up with Web TV that it cannot support a normal game board?

Dmitri.. i used to have a webtv.. the problem is with the loading.. the 19x19 boards have too many pixels to load properly on webtv.

I see. Web TV sounds like an inferior product. I often hear about problems that are specific to Web TV. Alas.

I agree with you Kevin. I like trying other versions of the games. Since Dmitri is the self-appointed "Keeper of All That's Pure and Standard of Pente as Played on a 19 X 19 Board" you're going to get endless complaining from him about even the mention of something different. He and I have had a running discourse that has more or less ended for me as he showed to me that he doesn't care what I think or try to even see what it is that I'm talking about. Your current postings with him look like an exact rehash of the ones him and I had on the tournament board and recently on the Keryo Pente board. He types lots and doesn't say much, just fights against it. He must really pound them keys while mistyping his memos to all concerned too.
While I can attack him all I want, it is growing tedious and making me look the same. How's that saying go? If he won't come up to my level, I'll have to go down to his? As I consider myself a nonserious player of inline games and their many versions, I should according to him shut up and leave it in much more capable hands (Excuse me "samwise" for paraphrasing, but he did agree with your post quite zealously). Geeze, and can you believe he called me arrogant?

A simple thing to understand is, if the people playing a game are happy playing it, who cares what someone else thinks about the game unless they are able to prevent you from playing it? If it was in Dmitri's power there'd be no other version of Pente anywhere. Probably not even Keryo Pente, though I can't say that for sure. As you noticed, he changes his tune when some of the heavyweights of the game that he obviously respects chip in their two cents. Though I won't promise, and it would take a sizable change in how he treats me and others in his postings that disagree with him, this will probably be my last post towards him. I will however continue to post about games and variations of them and ask for ideas and help about them too. Including nonstandard Pente boards and rules. Games evolve. Pente has, it'll probably change again. I doubt if Dmitri in his admonishment of the smaller boards or the rules differences has really studied all the ramifications of changing the parameters of his beloved Pente on a 19 X 19 board with the move restriction?

Topic in the title:
Perhaps the makers of this or other sites could set up the games so that the creator of a game could control more than just the time limit and choice of colors? Boardsize and move restriction could be options for Pente. Creators of tournaments could make it standard or try something else. Since I've gotten no response about my idea for Keryo Pente on a 9 X 9 or 10 X 10 (Except Dmitri's scoffing and complaining that is) I can assume that there's quite a bit of resistance or apathy or both to it. Either way, I sure if I was able to set up such a game someone would play me a game of it. That's the point I'm making. That person and me could have fun playing it, and that's what would matter. If we didn't have fun, we wouldn't need someone telling us we are playing a wrong game. We would just not play it any more.

Walter, you say you are not debating with me any more and then you take several cheap shots at me in your post. The fact is, I HAVE studied the ramifications of what I am talking about, and you don't appear to have done so yourself. And you have the gall to say that you would have to drop DOWN to my level? Did you READ your childish missive that you wrote a few days back? I made them mistake of thinking you had shut up since then because you finally realized you were making no sense and acting childish. Unfortunately I was wrong.

You say I change my tune when someone I respect chimes in. Wrong. I change my tune when someone says something INTELLIGENT. try it sometime! You might be surprised by how quickly I side with you if you acutally start making sense.

Now you have this wild idea of allowing the players to decide to board size? Are you nuts? Can you name ANY other game of any kind where the players can just pick the board or field size at their whim????

ALso, you are way off target with your claims about my take on variants. I SUPPORT Keryo pente and I like the game a lot. You are pretty dense if you haven't picked up on that. I support real "variants," just not the garbage you propose.

Also, if you READ before speaking, you will see that I have accepted the 13 X 13 board since it is needed for WebTV, but that I have shifted my focus to maintaining the restriction. Whatever size the board, there is no need to eliminate the restriction.

And, I stand by my calling you arrogant, you show that with every post as you imply or directly state that you are holier than I.

Oh, and let me know if you want the information on the OKC tournament so that you can show up with your 13 X13 boards. ha ha ha.

Hi Walter,

Your messages are interesting and well constructed, and I agree with most of what you've written. However, we are all reasonable individuals here who can discuss and even disagree civilly, so let us try to limit the invective to a minimum, shall we? Nobody made Dmitri the 'Keeper' of the game rules or anything of that sort.

I've been conversing with Dmitri for better than a couple of years, and always have found him a brilliant thinker. The fact that he holds a rigid view of pente rules does not modify that attitude. We disagree with his assertion that the player 1 rule restriction should apply to the keryo13 board, and that is why we are conducting the trial games. But, Dmitri is welcome to advance his philosophies just as much as we are to argue contrarily. His typing is poor due to a wrist ailment, and his style may seem brash to those who don't know him that well, but when he makes a point he is simply doing that, and nothing more; I do not for one moment believe he intends to injure anyone's emotions.... You suggested that Dmitri has chimed down when the stronger players offered their views. Well, here is a hint: Dmitri IS one of the stronger players! He isn't to be taken lightly in any version, and we could all learn a great deal from him.

You wrote that games evolve, and that's very true indeed. I applaud your willingness to try out alternate size boards, although offhand I think the 9 and 10 boards are probably too small to produce much in the way of viable tactics. But please feel free to experiment with these ideas, and if they are found to be of interest then write about it here.

I don't favor allowing a tournament maker to choose the board size. It would be a lot of programming on the site's part for little return, and it could get out of control in a real hurry. The fact is though, you don't need any on-line program to test these ideas. You can play an opponent via private message on the site, or by e-mail. It wouldn't be as convenient, of course; you'd have to set up your own boards and record the moves, but (as you seem to like cliches) 'where there's a will, there's a way'. Perhaps you might also get some friends to try these versions over the board with you.

Pioneer54