Seems that game is not Hasami-Shogi

nosovs: So what is it, in your opinion?
There are many variants which all call themselves Hasami Shogi. I've chosen the one which I liked the most.

I think it is better to ask Japanese .
seems this is not popular variant .
I see at this site Japanese may be they can say exactly

Googling on 'Hasami Shogi', reveals that there are many variations on the game, and they are all called 'Hasami Shogi'.

First hit is BoardGameGeek. Its rule summary doesn't mention winning with five in a row, but otherwise, the rules and the boards are identical.

Sensei's Library describesa game identical to the one on BK, except for a few details:

• the stones are placed on the intersections instead of the squares (trivial detail, doesn't effect game play)
  
• black starts, not white (trivial as well)
  
• first player must move "into the four middle rows".
  
• capturing a corner stone by flanking it on both sides.
  

It also mentions only 8 stones are placed in the initial setup, but that seems a typo as the image showing the initial position shows 18 stones.

It does however mention variations, and the fact there's no consensus on what Hasami Shogi is:

• Start with 9 or 18 stones.
• Winning by capturing all but one, or by creating five in a row.
• Moving like a (chess) rook, or just one square.
• Possibility of sandwiching diagonally (as in pente).
• Sandwiching one stone, or can more be sandwiched as well.
• Jumping over own stones or not.

Chessvariants describes 'Hasami Shogi' as being played with 9 stones each, and stones moving as rooks (no jumping). You win by reducing the opponent to a single piece. As variants, it mentions winning by reducing your opponent to four pieces and taking an edge piece by flanking it from any two adjacent sides.
It also mentions Hasami Chess, played on an 8x8 board with 8 stones each.

Games of Soldiers lets stones move a chess rooks (no jumping), captures by sandwiching horizontally or vertically, with edge capturing by any two adjacent pieces as an optional rule. The goal is to reduce the opponent to a single piece (no five in a row rule). It also mentions Mak-yek (or Apit-sodok) with 16 stones each and an additional capturing rule. And a hexagonal variant, Take.

Games and Puzzles uses rooks moves and jumps, and as goal making five in a row, either straight or diagonally.

Looking at the sites above, and a few more, I think we can draw the following conclusions:

• The game is played on a 9x9 board.
  
• It's usually played with 18 stones each, sometimes 9.
  
• Pieces move as chess rooks.
  
• In some variants, a piece may also jump over an adjacent piece. This is sometimes restricted to jumping only over a friendly piece.
  
• Capturing is done by sandwiching horizontally or vertically. Sometimes diagonally sandwiching is allowed.
  
• Some variants allow "edge" captures by flanking an enemy stone on the edge from any two sides.
  
• There are two goals: getting five in line (usually straight, sometimes diagonal), or reducing your opponent to one or less stones. Some variants allow either goal, other variants allow only one of the goals.
  

AbigailII: Thank you. My conclusion is, I'll leave the game as it is, with the rules as they are implemented here, and with the name Hasami Shogi.

A couple of quick questions.

Rules say: "A player captures one or more opponent's stones if he/she makes a move which "sandwiches" them."

1) Is there a limit to the number of opponent's stones? - so 4 if in the middle of the board.

2) Can you move your pieces into your opponents "home" area.

3) If you can move into your opponents "home" area, can your 5 in a row be made in that area also - as long as it does not include "your home"

4) Can you take out MANY of your opponents pieces in his "home" are if you "sandwiches" them while they are still sitting there.

BIG BAD WOLF: 1) No. 2) Yes. 3) Yes. 4) Yes.

i am a bit confused .. is it possible in the version on here to capture a single piece of your opponent by sandwiching it ?

or do you have to capture a minimum of 2 pieces next to another ?

Hrqls: yes you can capture 1 piece

Jason: thanks .. i thought i saw a forced win for white that way .. but i was mistaken :)

i forgot that after white captures a stone, black can move (and not white again ;))

i am now trying some starting positions and will find out whats the most fun way to start :)

does anyone know have tips yet ?

(did anyone already know this game before it came online ?)

I had never come across it before it came here , i think its a great game with so many differnt ways of playing it .

I assume if you jump an opponents stone and land in a spot that can sandwich their stone...they lose that stone. Is this correct?

SueQ: You cannot jump a stone and sandwich the stone you jumped with the stone you jumped with -- as the position on "the other side" will be vacant. You can however jump a stone and sandwich another stone, which will be removed from the board.

AbigailII: Thanks

Another assumption....I can put more than 5 stones in a row for the win...correct?

SueQ: Correct.

Hasami Shogi tournament!

White seems to have a pretty big advantage. Do you think maybe a simple rule of "can not move your piece back to the same spot on the next move - you have to at least wait 1 move before moving the same piece back to the same spot" would help?

And that is you can not move B3 to B4, then on your very next move you can not move B4 to B3. You can move B1 to B3, or move B4 somewhere else - but not back to the same spot.

Any other ideas?

To me, the first move white a1-a3 seems winning to me. There is nothing you can do about it.
Some options:
- We can restrict white to one neutral first move, like in pente.
- We can restrict white's by forbidding to make his second move on the same line as the first move.
- We can let black choose after the first move with which colour he wants to proceed. Like Hex, a connecting game.

Mirjam: Yea, once I seen the a1-a3 move - it is hard to counter. But if white is restricted from doing this (or similar), then black could gain the advantage by doing something similar.

As a side note, I hope they do not get upset for me posting the game - but this is one of the best games I have seen:

http://brainking.com/en/ArchivedGame?g=1089912&i=1

Between SueQ & Fencer - SueQ using the A1-A3 type of opening, and Fencer able to get past that and do some "damage". SueQ ends up winning by capturing enough of the pieces in the end.

BIG BAD WOLF: I still think SueQ could win the game at the very beginning.
What about to forbid white to make the first move at the board edge [1st or 9th column] and to the 3rd row?

Just brainstorming - but what about being able to capture enemy pieces which are surronded by 1 piece, and the wall.

That way if someone does the A1-A3, B1-B3, C1-C3 - the other person can come down to D3 and capture the other 3 pieces between it and the wall. It would again force the game to the middle of the board

I agree that something should be done to eliminate white's huge advantage. Possibly the first player could place two white pieces and one black piece and then the next opponent could choose which color they then want to be....like swap-five-in-line. (I think that was one of Mirjam's idea).

BBW's idea of capturing against the wall is interesting....will make for new strategies.

I also like Fencer's idea of limiting the very first move white can make. Or possibly having a standard white move like in pente.

OK...so basically I have no ideas of my own but the previous ideas are great and I do think something should be done.

As a side note, where the wall's can capture - that is only the side walls - not the top or bottom walls.

The only problem I see with a limit on whites first move is that I think it might be too much and then give black an advantage.

The "swap" idea is pretty good, but at least for me I think it would not work as well for this game.

When I first started playing, all the play was in the "middle" of the board and was fun - and I think making the walls be able to capture would move the game more towards the middle of the board.

I think that is the best idea, if Fencer wants to try: Here's one volunteer:)

I'm feeling lazy.. Can someone explain why that is such a strong opening move? I have a few games where various opponents are now doing that (which made me wonder why that seemed to be the sudden fad, LOL!), so I'm sure I will see once it plays out why it's so strong. But an explanation would be cool..

Oh, and we are ACTUALLY talking 1A to 1C, correct? (The notation seems backwards in this game, to me. Seems like it should be a1 - a3)

I'm lazy too, I won't explain, but you can invite me to a (unrated) game (me playing white) and I'll show you;)

lol, thanks, but that's not showing me quicker. I already have several games where my opponent has opened that way.

The offer is kind, though. :-)

In order to make the game better balanced, this is the idea [originally from vic] - at least one stone of the winning line of five stones must be placed either on the center row [E] or to the opponent's half of the board.

Hmm... I think it stinks to illiminate 2 horizontal row possibilities, though.

I'm far from an expert at this great game, though. (Yet!)

Wouldn't it work to just force white's first move to be in the center row? (Or maybe the center of the center row?)

rod03801: I think to force the white to move to the middle would then just shift the beter chance to black.

I also do not like the idea of at least one stone being placed in the middle (or past) to win - the board is not that big in the first place, so removing a couple of rows.

I still like the idea of making the walls "hot" - that is being able to capture opponenets pieces by using the wall as one of your "pieces"

Yeah, I like your solution with the walls, BBW.. seems the most reasonable solution..

Marfitalu: That would be too big change to remove the rule of five in line completely.

Marfitalu: Forgive me for my stupidity, but surely it would still have the same problem - just in the second move?

Is this move being discussed a "definite win" for white, or is there a defense for it?

If there is a defense, could someone post what it is??? (I haven't quite gotten it yet!) Maybe until there is a rule change of some sort, knowledge of this defense by as many people as possible, will help even things out a little.

Thanks.

my first game was quite interesting. i set my opponent up so that he could get 5 in a row but to do it he would have to sandwich him self. obviously this didnt work i wish the rules had clarified this.

Nothingness: LOL, how can I sandwich myself?

Can anyone tell me why this game:
http://brainking.com/en/ArchivedGame?g=1117634
didn't automatically give my opponent the win??? I resigned, because it seemed like it must be a bug, and it seemed only fair!

rod03801: Odd...must be a bug.

rod03801: *nod* seems like a bug to me as well

Now I fee a bit dumb, but I thought that Hasemi Shogi was another chess game! Now that I know what it really is, I've started a tourney so I can figure it out a bit more. Come and Join!

Hasami Shogi for who? Fast Fast Fast!

Eriisa: It can be confusing with the actual Shogi game here which is Japanese chess. One small detail Erissa is it a very one sided game with white having a huge advantage in a one game tourny instead of a two game switched color one.

Statistics
White won 1992 (61.25 %)
Black won 1249 (38.40 %)
Draws 11 (0.33 %)

sounds like I should have made that tourney a 2 game match, huh.

ah well......... next time! lol

What would make the difference for white to have such an advantage?

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SIgn up for Hasami Shogi! Open to first 8 players.

Do you like to play line games or want to learn? If you do, you should join the Official Lines Fellowship! We have line teams for almost every game as well as tourneys coming more and more! Sign up if you would like to join for teams, tourneys, lots of games, and the chance to better your game!

Hasami Shogi Modern (HT) Hasami Shogi Modern is exactly like the 'classic' version, except that winning conditions of 5 in a row HORIZONTALLY are not allowed.

In our experience, it is too easy for black to win with 5 pieces in a row horizontally, on black's 3rd row. This rule change (originally created by ItsYourTurn.com, as far as we know) forces both players to place pieces in enemy territory in order to win the game. It's a more balanced game, and it's more difficult than the 'classic' version. Give it a shot!

etnep: Thank you. (Did I say thank you?) Yeah, thank you.

Fencer, you read the Hasami Shogi discussion board right? I knew it. Of course you do.

Hasami Shogi (mangue vs. Dundee) is not win ? why? thanks

mangue:  From the rules:  The goal of the game is to make a connected line of 5 stones of the player's colour. The line can be made vertically or diagonally - not horizontally.