http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/8597217.stm

FROM LAST YEARS G20 SUMMIT

STILL NO NEWS ON THE GUY WHO DIED THOU

Artful Dodger: Nope... any reasonable person will see it was a more complicated matter than first thought. These things happen.

It's not like someone deliberately lying.

Vikings: No.. the topic was aircraft scanners and how someone abused them. It then turned onto terrorism. No-one is skirting the issue that radicals who fly under the Muslim banner hate America..... yet they are not the only ones who are terrorists.

"but they must not be lumped together like apples and oranges"

Our fruit bowl usually has apples, oranges, bananas and other fruits such as pears, plums, etc in it.

Big bowl

That you may choose to focus on just 'Muslim bannered' terrorists is your choice. But us in the UK and in Europe through the various terrorist threats and others committing hate killing cannot and will not.

Bernice: Spitting image was a great series.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCQa4iFmkW4

The only way to diffuse the problem with Muslim extremists is by dealing with the recruitment points used, that which is causing the angers. It worked in NI, where 99.99% of those at war are now at peace. They want peace to work.

... Bin Laden and his gang was a leftover of the cold war, I remember the news showing how these "brave guys" are killing Russians in Afghanistan. Their weaponry, the bad Russians, etc.

The west trained them to conduct guerilla warfare.

What gets me is with the Bin Laden family being based in the USA at the time with their links.. Surely they knew in US intelligence that Bin Laden was heavily against the USA.

Artful Dodger: OK, sorry I was in that lot as well......

I was wondering how long this was going to take....nit picking I mean.

Ferris Bueller: Well here is the first post in the thread, and as you can plainly see, it is aimed at airport security, it is the side of people who do not like profiling at airports that has changed the subject to domestic profiling by citing those examples as non muslim terorist attacts which no one is denying


Subject: Interesting item. Maybe we should do as Israel does.
Modified by Artful Dodger (27. March 2010, 12:57:51)
March 27, 2010
Airport worker caught in body scanner abuse
Thomas Lifson

That didn't take long. Human nature (male variety) remains constant. The BBC reports:

A Heathrow Airport security guard was given a police warning after he was allegedly caught staring at images of a female colleague in a body scanner.

Israel manages to overcome the most threatening environment for airline terrorism in the world by use
of profiling, but in the United States, thanks to political correctness, we insist on considering elderly grandmothers from Iowa a threat as serious as the Detroit crotch bomber.

As a result, attractive females can expect to be ogled at airports. Sorry, ladies. PC strikes again.

(V): The point is being completely missed or rather turned off topic, domestic idiots are not targeting the airports, muslim terorist are, period!!!! That is a fact that cannot be disputed and is the subject of this debate. What happens internally has nothing to do with it and any attempt do to so is simply an attempt to skirt the issue.
The topic is PROFILING AT AIRPORTS. If you want to change the subject that is fine but they must not be lumped together like apples and oranges

(V): well I dont really think it is a laughing matter, but that video is hilarious.

Bernice: Perhaps by dealing with key issues. Israel is not flavour of the month at the mo in Europe and the USA. Spying, assassinations, bribery.. murder, taking land and property of those who legally have the right to live there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GPtMfhpQ4Y

Vikings: Since when did government officials stop being Americans? Since when did those government officials stop having families with relatives.. Their names might be Joe, Bob, Jim.. they might buy regularly at Joe's corner store. Bob the accountant might have these officials using him for working on the taxes... and in visits to government offices Sue might end up as collateral damage.

They wish to cause terror and death, in that there is no difference between your internal and external terrorist threats.

Bernice:

Is it that different from little "cadet" training for kids? What about parents who teach their kids to use guns, or who send them to "military school"? We have video games designed by the Pentagon. Those games have as their objective to desensitize youth and to advertise a career in the military for them. Most war video games are being produced with funding from the military. Many Hollywood movies have funding from the military too, and the military supplies vehicles, aircraft, ships, etc. when film companies want to make movies. For the military it is "free advertising".

We might feel that we are better, but our culture is a culture of violence too. The difference is that instead of fundamentalist islam, we sell freedom and democracy as an excuse for militarizing our youth. Then we are surprised about things such as the Columbine High School Massacre.

Übergeek 바둑이: Then Bin Laden family is one of the rishest families in the world


you didnt mention the assistance this family got from the Bush family,

In Capitalism everything is a business and everything generates profit for somebody. People forget that terrorism is not an exception.Whether covertly or openly, there are those who have profitted from terorism. In western governments the corrupt have profitted from cimes such as drug trafficking, weapons trafficking, prostitution, racketeering, etc. Likewise, there are those in western society who have profitted from terrorism.

Then Bin Laden family is one of the rishest families in the world and Osama Bin Laden raised funds for his terrorist operations by bringing cheap weapons to war-torn African countries and exchanging them for blood diamonds. Then those diamonds were brought to Europe where they were sold at high prices. Osama Bin Laden made a fortune, and so did De Beers, the big diamond monopoly, and all those "commodities traders" who bought and sold diamonds for profit.

After the Sep. 11 attack, weapons manufacturers made superprofits by selling weapons to both domestic and foreign markets. Very often the same weapons that are used by Coalition forces also end up being sold to Al Qaida fighters through the black markets.

Security firms have made a bundle by selling security systems, scanning sytems, consulting services, security "guards" (mercenaries), etc. Mercenaries is the old name, now we call them "security contractors".

"Oil service" companies have made a fortune in "reconstruction". In the first year of the war Haliburton made US $38 billion in profit by selling mostly water and foods to the military, as well as putting out oil well fires, rebuilding pipelines, etc.

Of course, the media have made a fortune. News organization, TV and cable channels, even filmmakers have profitted from the war on terror.

In general, the higher the "level of terror" and the "security threat", the higher the profits from terrorism have been. The more paranoia is sown in the population, the bigger the profits. It is why western governments have shown every interest in feeding public paranoia. When those at the top are running the companies that make the most money, they have every interest in using terrorism for profit.

(V): Anthrax was sent to Government officials not to grandma's house, Timothy Mc Vey bombed a Federal building, not Joe at the corner grocery store, The white supremacists were going to target a local official, not Bob the accountant whereas terrorist blowing up airplanes want to kill grandma, Bob and Joe, I am not afraid for my wife flying from these people, they have no wish to harm her but I do worry about her flying because of the foriegn/muslim terrorist, because she is exactly who they wish to harm,
as far as being upset about being profiled, I used to get profiled because of my looks, I understood it and I lived with it, as long as I wasn't doing anything wrong I wasn't worried

Artful Dodger: The point is while so called Islamic fighters (who we in the west trained) are killing, or planning killing.. do not lose sight of the other groups hell bent on some vengeance or other plan for mass murder.

Some old granny could be a white supremacist sympathiser, others have used the blow a plane up system before. Lockerbie was in 1988, others have happened.

Vikings: The government is made up of people off the USA, these groups are made up by people of the USA. ... I don't get it.. are you saying the terror felt by those targeted was any less real than terror felt by those killed by terrorists on a plane. Those who were targeted by the anthrax bomber(s?) was less real?

I worked in a chemical warehouse, where each chemical had to be hazard rated on a scale of 0-10 ... fatal was 6.2, the real nasty stuff was the mutagens. If there was a fire.. we would run upwind!!

(V): no, what I am telling you is that domestic terrorist have an agenda against governments and groups, not to strike fear into people who fly,
for example, Timmothy McVey-The government
Bruce Edwards-The government
The recent suprimist group- their local government to start with

suicide bombers on airplains-the people

Artful Dodger: Maybe we shouldn't have trained them "freedom fighters" so well... well Reagan called them that when us in the west taught them how to blow up the USSR military machine back a while.

And that some think suicide is martyrdom shows how far off from real Islam they are. Like those who threatened Kevin Smith over the film "Dogma" with death.

Just because they say they are Christians, don't mean they are in heart, mind and spirit.

The UK's main problem has been an American export.. kids trying to be rapper gangsters. The pirates off Somalia... they have been causing much in the way of problems.

Extremists are only part of the problem.

Vikings:  It seems to me profiling for terrorists is both an internal & external matter.

Vikings: Are you telling me that because your internal terrorists do not (so far) use planes they are not a threat to USA civilians, etc.

Suppose they start using private small planes from small airfields, or start on the 1000's of internal flights instead of just bombing and killing.. will they then score enough points on the 'who will kill a civilian' scale?

No. The FBI will pursue anyone who threatens your people. Whether internal or external terrorists.

What do Timithy McVey, Bruce Edwards and the idiot white supremacists all have in common?
None of them have attempted to take down an airplane and therefore are completely irreverent to this conversation.

Remember the original basis for this debate was profiling on airplanes, not internal security.

The 2001 anthrax attacks in the United States, also known as Amerithrax from its Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) case name, occurred over the course of several weeks beginning on September 18, 2001, only a few days after the September 11 attacks. Letters containing anthrax spores were mailed to several news media offices and two Democratic U.S. Senators, killing five people and infecting 17 others. (A 2004 study however, has shown that the total number of harmed people should be raised to 68 [1].) The primary suspect was not publicly identified until 2008.

In mid-2008, the FBI narrowed its focus to Bruce Edwards Ivins, a scientist who worked at the government's biodefense labs at Fort Detrick in Frederick, Maryland. Ivins was told of the impending prosecution and on July 27 committed suicide, by an overdose of acetaminophen.[2]

On August 6, 2008, federal prosecutors declared Ivins to be the sole culprit of the crime.[3] Two days later, Sen. Charles Grassley and Rep. Rush Holt called for hearings into the DOJ and FBI's handling of the investigation.[4][5]

Tom Carey was inspector in charge of the FBI Amerithrax investigation from October 2001 to April 2002.

On the mailings of the letters,

"What we do have and what we do know is that the anthrax was mailed here in the United States; we know it was mailed from 10 Nassau Street, Princeton, New Jersey, from a mailbox. We know the flow of the mail flow, we know the dates that the letters were sent, and it would appear to many of us that have worked this investigation, that it’s much more consistent with someone being an American-born, and having some level of familiarity with the Princeton-Clinton New Jersey area versus a foreign operative coming into the U.S. and being able to successfully conduct such an attack."

On May 9, 2002, New Scientist published an article that reported:

'The DNA sequence of the anthrax sent through the US mail in 2001 has been revealed and confirms suspicions that the bacteria originally came from a US military laboratory. The data released uses codenames for the reference strains against which the attack strain was compared. The two reference strains that appear identical to the attack strain most likely originated at the US Army Medical Research Institute for Infectious Diseases at Fort Detrick (USAMRIID), Maryland. The new work also shows that substantial genetic differences can emerge in two samples of an anthrax culture separated for only three years. This means the attacker's anthrax was not separated from its ancestors at USAMRIID for many generations.'

Authorities arrested leaders of a militia group in the midwest US yesterday.  They allegedly had all kinds of "brilliant" plans to shoot & blow up policemen, & then, "visit" their funerals to kill their family members.  They are white & call themselves Christian.  I'm sure if they were interviewed, they would cite Biblical justifications for their actions.  It would be foolish of me to suggest that Christianity is a violent religion based on this group.  But, there are "Christian Identity" groups that will resort to violence.  If profiling really worked well, we should be able to "weed out" these people also.  Let's totally suspend due process for them, strip search any civilian who might be a member of a militia, white, & dresses in fatigues.  OH!!  And be sure to take away their guns.  The NRA would just love that.

Artful Dodger: Do we? Can you show me where you get your info for such a statement. Quite frankly.. it doesn't seem to be true. The local army base has not needed to have armed guards on the gates for ages. A more accurate measure I feel than some government 'alert'.

"but I'm speaking specifically about Muslim terrorists and what should be the reaction of the US regarding profiling policies."

The USA is just one country who is at risk of attack, we in Europe have had to deal with actual terrorism as I said for decades. That gives us a different attitude then you in the USA.

We cannot in the UK just forget or drop worries about other terrorist groups such as the IRA, especially when splinter groups from the main are trying to kick it all off again. It is totally unsafe to do so. Just because you in the USA did not feel the effects of that terrorism does not make it less important.

That we've had several white supremacist attacks and attempts makes us in Europe (and Russia seeing as there has been a significant rise in white folk killing non white folk) makes us concerned over what is going on. It was only last year when one Nazi lover was jailed for attempting to blow up people in the UK. The only thing that stopped him was him getting drunk and stopped for D&D by the police.

Islam, like Christianity does not condone suicide. It more so forbids the taking of non-combatants. Those who fight under the Islamic banner may use the name, but like those Christians who have used God as an excuse to kill with a clear conscience it is a perversion of the faith.

Artful Dodger: I saw that on the world news....

Artful Dodger: The concept of the suicide bomber dates to the 11th century, when the Assassins adopted it as a strategy to spread Islam through northern Persia. It appeared again among Muslims from India to the Philippines in the 1700's. During World War II, Japanese fighter pilots were recruited for suicide, or kamikaze, missions.

Artful Dodger: and the guy in australia was a Dr. and he was cleared of all wrong doing....he lent his phone to his cousin? and was arrested because of the numbers stored on it.....that is a long time ago and it took the poor bugger a long time to prove his innocence but he is back finishing his medical degree is Australia as are his family.

Artful Dodger: like the stimulus pkg they crammed down our throats.

Artful Dodger: "Well Jules is wrong. " surely you jest! lol
I was able to read the pdf that Ferris provided....but its outdated now, and me and utube just dont get along, so I couldnt read the link jules provided.
I havent read the new bill...I can only go on what my friends are faced with in thier businesses.

Artful Dodger: How can anyone possibly tell who is a Muslim terrorist?  The Middle Eastern groups recruit from disenfranchized people all over the world.  They often get people of different races & ethnic backgrounds to do their dirty work these days. Profiling is not done out of "political correctness".  It is not done because it is less than effective.

Artful Dodger: "Now he signs a bill that will essentially force people into buying insurance."
see...this is how I understood the bill in its current form. but jules claims employers have an option...I'm not sure.

Artful Dodger: Can you name which some? The groups in the Uk seem to be very vocal over what's happening and (as I said) helping the UK police and security forces in this troubled time. Many other countries Muslims are helping as well I hear.

Artful Dodger: No we are talking about terrorism. Something the UK and Europe have been dealing with for decades in some form or another.

Artful Dodger: Ohhhh yes they have.

Artful Dodger: ... It matters to us in the UK. As UK citizens have been blown up or attempted to be blown up by more then Muslims. Muslims did not invent terrorism

We've had several white supremacists attempt or actually kill people in the UK. The IRA splinter groups have been blowing up and are PROMISING more in order to try and restart the Northern Ireland troubles again... over 3500 deaths over 40 years that war took.

They are NOT boy scouts. They don't care if the person is a civilian or not.

Übergeek 바둑이:   Good posts!  If it happens to you, how many other non-asian were unfairly targeted for profiling?  One negative experience of incompetent profiling can signify that there are many more.  If profiling is so effective, lets just go the next step - put all middle eastern Muslims in internment camps or "ghettos" so we can have better "control" over them.

The British foreign office is warning those UK nationals travelling to Israel to only hand over their passports to anyone including Israeli officials when absolutely necessary. The risk (especially with old pre biometric passports) of fraudulent use by Israeli secret service is considered high after the recent assassination in Dubai. Even though after a similar incident in 1987 the Israeli government promised not to fake UK passports again.

Those involved in the assassination are now on Interpol's wanted list.

GTCharlie: Look don't ... we have enough trouble with white supremacists, splinter IRA groups and the BNP stirring it. We are kicking out with help from the Muslim community any extremists, or them being arrested for hate crime. It's going to get so confusing for the poor security services over here!!

That's why everyone gets scanned.

Artful Dodger:

White Supremacist Timothy McVeigh carried out the Oklahoma City Bombing aided by Terry Nichols. Should we profile single Caucasian males of Irish Catholic descent? What about potential white supremacists, say people who look Germanic or with blond hair and blue eyes? After all, we don't want another Oklahoma City bombing. When was the last time profiling along these lines occurred and a Caucasian person was given a hard time at an airport or office building?

I can understand the logic behind profiling. However, the problem is that racial profiling targets individuals based on a physical stereotype. Italians must be mafiosi. Latin Americans deal in drugs. Blacks are all gansgstas who are really good at basketball. Russians are either communists or gansters. Now we translate those stereotypes into "forensic profiles" and target individuals in those communities.

Here in Canada the a newspaper did a study and found that black motorists were three times more likely to be stopped by police officers, even though blacks make up less than 3% of the population. Anybody can see that there is something wrong because between profiling and racism there is a very fine line.