Czuch: You've not read it all then. Look deeper and you'll find more of a breakdown and talk about the type of government spending.

"In theory the relationship between government expenditures and economic growth is ambiguous. Long ago, Thomas Hobbes (1651) described life without government as "nasty, brutish, and short" and argued that the law and order provided by government was a necessary component of civilized life.4 Taking the Hobbesian view, certain functions of government such as the protection of individuals and their property and the operation of a court system to resolve disputes should enhance economic growth.5 Viewed from another angle, secure property rights, enforcement of contracts and a stable monetary regime provide the foundation for the smooth operation of a market economy.

Governments can enhance growth through efficient provision of this infrastructure. In addition, there are a few goods -- economists call them "public goods" -- that markets may find troublesome to provide because their nature makes it difficult (or costly) to establish a close link between payment for and receipt of such goods. Roads and national defense fall into this category. Government provision of such goods might also promote economic growth. "

"..............In the real world, governments may not undertake activities based on their rate of return and comparative advantage. Small government by itself is not an asset. When a small government fails to focus on and efficiently provide core functions such as protection of persons and property, a legal system that helps with the enforcement of contacts, and a stable monetary regime, there is no reason to believe that it will promote economic growth. This has been (and still is) the case in many less developed countries. Governments -- including those that are small -- can be expected to register slow or even negative rates of economic growth when these core functions are poorly performed. Unless proper adjustment is made for how well the core functions are performed, the empirical relationship between size of government and economic growth is likely to be a loose one, particularly when the analysis involves a diverse set of economies."


I told ya to read it Czuch.

Czuch:

Czuch: ROFL

(V): Here is the first thing I read, took about 10 seconds to find.....


The data in Exhibit 4 for OECD countries suggests that smaller government is correlated with faster rates of economic growth. While in theory government could be too small to provide the necessary environment for economic growth, the data in Exhibit 4 give no indication that any OECD government was excessively small at any time during 1960-96. Within the size of government range of this period, smaller government was consistently associated with more rapid economic growth.

Czuch: http://www.house.gov/jec/growth/function/function.htm

Just read, I've had a glance. It explains more in depth what I'm trying to say

Enjoy.

(V): my understanding..... government runs things/socialism..... private sector runs things/capitalism

I am sure you will explain to me how wrong I am, and how increased socialism will decrease government?

Czuch: I can't agree with you on that. There was an attempt to sort out things in the soviet union and as such the 'system' would have entailed less government, but the leaders didn't like this due to less need for them. It all depends on the leadership on how much government there is. As socialism is a varied concept and used in different ways, as is capitalist ideas..

(V): you can have a capitalist country and a big government.

Sure you can, I never said it was mutually exclusive..... but simply that the same capitalist country with a big government, would have an even bigger government if it were socialist

Socialism by its very nature creates more government than does capitalism.

Czuch: Untrue.. you can have a capitalist country and a big government. And as such ..too much unneeded red tape and 'politics' rather then just getting on and doing the job.

gogul: ... and to think that the political powers in the US right now want nothing more than to emulate Europe and its socialists structures, and all the news we hear tells us how happy everyone in social land are, and how the rest of the world hates us capitalists, and if we just joined you all in your happy socialism, the world will suddenly be a better place to live.

I dont buy this crap, but most people do

gogul: I prefer big corporations over big governments.


Big corporations are a side effect of capitalism, while big government is a side effect of socialism....

What is your solution, to prosper and have at the same time no nasty corporations of corrupt government?

gogul: Not from what I remember while working at one of their subsidiaries. But that was a classified project for a commonwealth countries army. The standards were very high as the consequences of it breaking down or not doing it's job were severely dangerous in terms of manpower safety.

Bernice: This is the kind I was referring to..

http://johncottam.com/Picture%20413a.jpg

And Siemens products have no value. Cheap producer causing all sort of problems all along the way with its products. This we know as a matter of fact. We'd be better off to do the things our self instead of letting it Siemens do.

Czuch: Corporations like Deutsche Bank (sponsor of the Berlin philharmonica) and Siemens. Very fortune, above the law, without respect for ALL marcets, whose taxcontributions circulate in a loop within some elites. The Germans are told that there is no money around anymore, and to be a good German, you need to pay your taxes. Again money that finds the way in the loops of the elites. Germans work for their elites, all the money they pay in form of taxes and fees serves to entertain the elites. As tourist you see lovely fassades everywhere in the rich areas of Europe, the ones promoted by the tourist industry. These fassades have been restorated lately, all in new glitter. These nice fassades represent the fake to all who struggle without reasonable reasons. The elites fail horribly, and their promises were not even ment to be honest. I can count a lot of things of which I know that the industry got able to produce under much cheaper conditions as 10, even 5 years ago. Do we profitate of this? Not a bit. 90% of the wealth floats in he pockets of few, for their entertainment, because it's their caracter to manipulate, to abuse, to have power over people. Our history is full of it. The power of the cities in Europe, it's a story of the abuse of those who feed the cities. Welcome in the nice middleage cities!

Czuch: I could care less about musicians and hollywoodstars. What makes me explode are big corporations, they are everything else but entertaining.

Czuch: When will this end that there are Americans who think that it matters if people from elsewhere are jealous of America. Jealous are those who seach for being part of an elite, hence working in jobs to develop abuse. All the rest wants a decent life for them self and everybody else, no matter where they are. This is the real world. Nobody reasonable wants your wealth, but where I get robbed, I take it back sooner or later.

gogul: To be elitary means to be a abuser.

Do you not consider the Bono's (U2 band leader) of the world to be elitists as well?

Czuch: I dont consider a countys people as a team. To be elitary means to be a abuser. I blame vertical within a society and not downward like all the people who admire the uglyness of the elites, but upwards, just as it has to be. Your elite wants you to fight weaker humans than you are. You better make a good choice and fight upwards and realize that in your county as well not everything is at best.

Czuch: having been married to a plasterer/tiler....a breeze block is a block with holes in it....lets the air through

http://www.besserblockcentre.com.au/newsite/html/screen_blocks.html

gogul: We have to keep our economy rolling by producing what we need, obviously food and water. Of both we have enough recources to poison all oceans with corn.


This I had to paste, just because it made me LOL!!!

Übergeek 바둑이: Maybe we should appoint Cheech and Chong as ministers of the environment!


yeah... and maybe they can tell me why my crop is so bad this year?

(V): The only new scheme is to use breeze blocks as the inner wall


as a plaster/paint contractor, i want to know more about what is a breeze block?

Übergeek 바둑이: We pollute a lot more than China does,


REALLY???

gogul: WOW! You want to blame China??? Its so funny, the America haters (jealous) seem to forget about any other world problems, you never hear the media or anyone else, its all just America blah blah blah....

Übergeek 바둑이: First, what causes capitalism? People do. Wars are fought due to the greed for wealth and power.


Yikes! 34 new posts and this is the first two lines I read???

First, capitalism is not something that is "caused"...

Second, Why wars are fought cannot be so easily generalized

Sometimes wars are fought in defense of something, so you may start one with me because you are greedy for wealth, but my war is in defense of you, I am NOT fighting a war for greed or wealth, merely survival.


(thats all I got right now, since I have many posts to read and respond to)

Übergeek 바둑이: Ok... with plastics it's not perfect... but it's a whole lot better then ten years ago.. even 5!!

The amount of stuff that is now recyclable plastic wise by the markings is about 90% of what we get through our household.

Funny technology.. just saw a program last night about how lucky WWII ended in 1945. The German boffins had cracked 'stealth' technology with speed that would have broken the British radar system and would have given time for the development of the Nazi A-Bomb and a jet fighter style wise akin in shape to the American Stelth bomber. They could have nuked the USA (or any country within range of the bomber) and no-one had the technology to stop them.

The guys who build the radar models for profile testing at the Stealth plant were so happy to at last to show of their skill and dedication in the reconstruction of the German Stealth fighter/bomber, as normally it's all .. hush, hush.

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/the-dewline/2009/06/the-aircraft-that-could-have-m.html
A link to a page on the German 2-29

(V):

It is good that we recycle plastics. The real problem is not so much the polymers. Polyethylene, polystyrene and other thermoplastics can be melted and recycled. Thermosetting plastics like polyester can be reused for upholstery stuffing, carpets, etc.

The real problem with plastics is UV light degradation and all the plasticizers and additives.

As UV light degrades plastics, small amounts of hydrocarons are released, and some of those have biological activity. As the plastics degrade the plasticizers leach out and those chemicals have biological activity too.

There is a big push now to get rid of plasticizers like BPA because they have estrogenic activity and they can affect fetal and child development as well as increase chances of breast cancer and prostate cancer. In animals they can cause problems too, such as thin and brittle egg shells in birds and they can inhibit reproductive activity in amphibians and reptiles.

Ideally, recycling improvements, changes in legislation, and technological changes can make things better.

gogul: Lady?? Only in respects of the divine... And yes I've heard the many coloured land as such.. but in that there is no grave.

(V): Marco Polo or Ignatius di Loyola. At least your boss is a lady if it comes to religious culture

with everyone of YOU, you have musicians to hire, yours is only the text.

With one feet you are in the grave, with the other in heaven. Take care my friends, by concious

The only problem here is the old blocks of flats that were *cough* 'inspired' housing. But they are slowly disappearing.. they are getting demolished being the bad idea they are, and the remains recycled into usable material for foundations.

I have mobile computer issues. Sorrytwo posts bellow. I could redoit tonight, but this does it as well, my message came through. It's not intentionally like that.

Übergeek 바둑이: Most plastic these days is recyclable. They make plastic carrier bags that breakdown in 18 months, food containers, polystyrene packaging.. all recyclable.

Our blue bin is full every collection time. Tins, cardboard, plastic.. as for compost.. I ain't giving it away.. a home compost heap is what most UK people prefer. Good for next years fruit and veg crops.

I think it was the city Salem. Everyone got killed because nobody told them about problems you can get with corn.

Today we don't get told what we really need, it might as well kill you.

Übergeek 바둑이: Plastic is not enduring if it has to stay at the sunlight. A little problem I guess. Plastic is cool of course.

Your 'I like to recomand you an article of Wikipedia'. LOL

We need to forget that we have to renew everything to keep the ecoomy rolling. We have to keep our economy rolling by producing what we need, obviously food and water. Of both we have enough recources to poison all oceans with corn.

Would you like to invest your time in what yoÜbergeek 바둑이: Plastic is not enduring if it has to stay at the sunlight. A little problem I guess. Plastic is cool of course.

Your 'I like to recomand you an article of Wikipedia'. LOL

We need to forget that we have to renew everyting to keep the ecoomy rolling. We have to keep our economy rolling by producing what we need, obviously food and water. Of both we have enough recources to poison all oceans with corn.

Would you like to invest your time in what you are passionated to? Do it, in the new world you'll do it, be it flying a plane to your grandma, be it a blade, be it music.

Lies is what keeps our systems alive. The glass you give to recycle, you can do better about with a special knowledge. The weed you compost, an other will need it for alcohol. You'll pay as guest by being welcome.

An overwhelming fortune. Today represented as brandnames.u are passionated to? Do it, in the new world you'll do it, be it flying a plane to your grandma, be it a blade, be it music.

Lies is what keeps our systems alive. The glass you give to recycle, you can do better about with a special knowledge. The weed you compost, an other will need it for alcohol. You'll pay as guest by being welcome.

An overwhelming fortune. Today represented as brandnames.

(V):

> But the country is still a work in progress!!

I think all of humanity is a work in progress. Here in Edmonton we have a good recycling program too. We put all recyclables in a bag or bin, and there is a big plant where they get sorted and sent to appropriate places for reuse.

I saw a system similar to yours in Austria. One bin was for recyclables like glass, and another for organic matter that would go into a municipal composter.

I think the real problem is plastic. Bacteria cannot digest them, and as they age they leach out plasticizers and other additives. Science makes progress, but the progress is slow if people see no profit in it. Science created all of these materials that we need in every day life. It is up to science to find better materials that pollute less. In reality nature gives us just about everything we need and natural materials are often the best. For example, hemp fibres are good for clothing and packaging. However, prejudice because several varieties of hemp are used as a drug (marihuana) has slowed down commercial development and research.

Maybe we should appoint Cheech and Chong as ministers of the environment!

Übergeek 바둑이: I only chuck stuff away that no longer has function, I only update as necessary. The PC is by nature of some computer boffins research expected to double in capability about the two year mark... but most can be updated, (even better if you have a good 2nd hand computer store nearby with loads of bits from deconstructions) so they can last a long time.

It all boils down to whether you take care of your gadgets or not. Yes, as a matter of fact some gadgets will no longer have function, as in eg.. not the capacity to run new programs due to speed specifications. But there will always be bits that can be salvaged and reused or sold on.

Bricks and mortar are still preferred here... traditional. The only new scheme is to use breeze blocks as the inner wall (or concrete in flats) to save time and give better strength. Yet.... still there is daft schemes advertising "house guaranteed for 10 years".

Here in the UK now we have street level recycling due to a two bin and glass collection system as part of the bin run. Compost heaps are an old favourite as well The gutter water barrel is more and more used.

But the country is still a work in progress!!

Hello padugi :)

when ever I look at a countries culture, I search for an anchor older than the present representation. For Europe, to me it's not Charles one. I took him to illustrate something. How did he came to power anyway? Europeans were sick and sad, there were no more point of reference, nobody knew about the fake of this bogus called religious authority be it Rome or Bysanz. China is ridiculous with Mao. Xioapeng is ridicoulous with a formation in France. I don't give nothing for a formation in France. As chemist you might have maybe an insight of what steel is, if so, you'd be my man!

You have no idea how horrible I consinder the 'reflection' of my culture, which is the fake of the roman catholic church. Behind this there is richness and infinite knowledge. We ove. Here are indeed save, it's the senseless Europe sent out to colonalize for instance king thoughts were: What the bull are the colonialists bringing home again. Russians are save. I still do doupt in China. Point of reference? What is Han??

(V):

Consumer capitalism has fallen into a system of discardable items that are meant to last for a few years. In that way consumers must constantly keep replacing what they buy every few years.

If we go back a few years, say the 1970s, people would have thought it was stupid to buy a piece of electronics (like a calculator) only to replace it or throw it away in two or three years. Now we routinely buy cell phones, MP3 players, etc., and we know that after two or three years they will be "obsolete".

There was a time when people would reuse everything. My grandmother would wash plastic bags and reuse them over and over until they were in tatters and could not be used any more.

15 years ago a computer would cost $3000-4000 (at least 2000 pounds in the UK). If you had told those consumers that their computer would be obsolete in six months, they would have refused to buy them. Now computers are cheap and there are so many old computers that we don't know what to do with all that plastic.

Plastic windows became popular (at least here in Canada) because they are more energy efficient. Plastic is a poor transmitter of heat compared to metal, so in our cold weather plastic windows make sense. However, they last less. It used to be that brick and mortar was the preferred way to build homes. Here in Canada the construction industry shifted to plywood and particle board. It is more energy efficient, but after 30 or 40 years homes literally fall apart. Brick lasts centuries. Companies like Home Depot have made billions by convincing home owners to replace or renovate homes with materials that will need to be replaced in a few years.

I think it is environmentally unsustainable. The more garbage we make, the more pressure there will be to find a place to put that garbage. Shipping it to India might be OK for industrialized nations trying to sweep the problem under the carpet, but sooner or later all that garbage will come back to haunt everyone, just like Radon gas in homes built over covered landfills.

Übergeek 바둑이: Just reminds me of something I learnt re new televisions....

6 years is the expected lifetime till major parts break and it becomes to costly to fix. If your TV lasts longer.. think yourself lucky.
I see windows built with plastic parts that are designed to have a short lifetime.. the metal version lasts longer but some just use the plastic.

In the end companies are in the business of selling items. So nothing today as such is built to last like back in the days of the industrial revolution era.

I find V's comments interesting. China is very different today from what it was 40 years ago. From the Cultural Revolution to capitalist superpower. China might be ruled by the Communist Party, but China is one of the most "free enterprise" countries in the world. Compared to most western nations, China has very lax laws for opening and operating a business. For this reason China seems to have a more liberal policy towards business than many western nations and in China you can literally buy and sell anything.

In comparison, many western nations have complex laws, and opening and operating businesses is relatively complicated and expensive. We have a lot more laws for protecting workers, the environment, etc. In that sense most western industrialized countries (including the US) are a lot more "socialist" than China is. We also have much more powerful centralized banking systems and economic controls in place.

China's change was the product of Deng Xiaoping's policies when he became head of the Communist party after Mao's death. Deng Xiaoping was educated in France. It was in France that he was exposed to Marxism, but I imagine that his stay there also gave him a sense of the potential in industrialized capitalism. He brought western ideology, both Marxist and capitalist, to China.

Of course, the lack of regulations has caused a lot of problems with the environment and public health. Quality control is good in China, but there are also big lapses and dishonesty. In fairness, I don't think China is worse than any other country. I have seen some really poor quality products made in North America and Europe. We pollute a lot more than China does, and we have had serious issues of public health and quality control.

Speaking of stuf muffins, Count Vlad Putin should be counted among them! I guess there are stud muffins not just outside the Democrat ranks, but also outside the US:

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/090806/world/eu_russia_putin_celebrity_1

gogul: Did you hear about the sofas from China? Some kinda little bag that was used to stop them developing mould etc while in transit was causing allergic reactions in people in the UK who sat on them.

China has come some way since it's pure 'communist' regime. It's got a way to go yet, but as with much of the wars (internal and external) the us and them needs dropping.

The old adage "his name is legion" comes to mind... which also relates to how the war mongers and the big war machine stay in business.

The company Siemens is drowned enough to sell Russian nuclear power plants in the west btw. The Russian argue toward Siemens managers that all other energy sources have substantial drawbacks. Like wind turbines: infrasonic, causing depressions. Solar panels: Do localy cool down the air. Well thanks for the information.

Siemens made a good deal in march, didn't day. The permanent grave drawbacks and the fatal doom in process of this industry, have Siemens managers ever heard about? No? But Angela Merkel has, something we can be sure about. It's her problem anyway.

These govts , those who indeed possess ove spaces of this earth, they are drowned in it. Take the Chinese as extreme: They have over a too long period of time not shown any will to find any kind of identification to climate change, human rights, labor conditions and ANY burning problem of our earth. All just alien things for them. They are DROWNED in incredible richness, and all you can buy with money. The Chinese do nothing else but fighting the KP. They fight on daily basis against a corrupt ugly monster exporting toys who get classified as dangerous. Exporting jevelry which kills the polisher. Exporting systematic fake and phony bogus products. Polluate the Chinese waters to oppress the Chinese. The bogus exporting nation exports bogus, this is what traders have to deal with when it comes to a Chinese to talk with, you are confronted with bogus to keep you alien.

People who were thinking for the Bush-administration respectively to fill their maps with meaningless papers were reacting on what happened here in 2007. A f/s made the proof and attentive members could nothing else than notice. So what will WE get. Justice or games, Barak Obama?

Übergeek 바둑이: I suggest some former pages may have an opinion on Foley

Aren't Gore and B. Clinton just the studliest of all stud muffins?

Tuesday: Or how about if Obama would shoot the joke Eric Prince from Blackwater. Just to show that he means what he is saying.

Übergeek 바둑이: I got what you were saying. With "so what?" I was asking what is the problem with the big warmongers and their helpers like Monsanto go down? Are you in one of those businesses who lost contact to the real world? Then let me tell you strait, I wouldnt care about you. Justice today is a farce, this is not only what informed people know. You know even more about if you work in the managments of war profeteers, banks, etc. Justice is to see those people weed on our fields.

The answer of what I expect from Obama to change, read below. And then again the question. Why should we care to see those big companies go down? Intelligent people is not the rich profeteering from those companies, not media, politicians, think thanks supporting them. Don't care don't mind. Of course it's a moral corrupt thing to work for Monsanta.

The alternative to the world today, it's a better one without the warmongers. Simple choice in my eyes. My gun is loaded and aims in direction of spin doctors. You can stop the nonsense about huge unemployment, this only happens if the warmongers are not cooperative.

Tuesday:

> Aren't Gore and B. Clinton just the studliest of all stud muffins?

I am sure Monica L. agrees that B. Clinton is better than a lemon-poppy seed muffin.

I thought Barack Obama was considered quite the SM too, in fact, he might be right up there, in the range of a buttered crumpet with strawberry marmalade on top.

The question is, are there any Republican stud muffins?