Czuch: You've summed it up. ;)

Artful Dodger: You are saying that the end justifies the means. That's bad policy.


Thats exactly what he is saying... that it doesnt really matter how we get people to reduce their "carbon foot print" as long as it happens!

(V): Ok... it is a fact that we are an adaptive species..


The point AD was trying to make , is that you claimed that he IGNORED the fact that we are an adaptive species when he made his thesis.... give us some proof how you know that this fact was IGNORED?

(V): You said: "As to random.. that's only due to lack of info over how. "

If you lack information, how can you draw such a conclusion? The reality is, you can't. You're saying that the scientist is wrong about "random" and you use as evidence in your argument the lack of evidence. How's that work?

Then you say: "Plus he ignores that we are the first race on this planet to be able to change significantly our surroundings, such as deforestation.."

Which you can't possibly REALLY know unless you've read his work in its entirety. Which I doubt you have.

So it makes me wonder how you came to that conclusion. Did a hedgehog whisper it in your ear?

And also: "I agree, the carbon footprint thing is a bit crazy in certain respects, but it's also leading to a cut down in fuel usage by making cars more economical."

If the "carbon footprint" is a bit crazy (it's not scientific and it's nonsense. Carbon dioxide is plant food. The environmentalists treat it like it's a polution. And Co2 levels are DOWN. Temps are up. Where's the connection?

You are saying that the end justifies the means. That's bad policy.

Artful Dodger: People can use examples Art. I see people comparing things to other things on here?

Did I miss another memo??

http://www.bradshawfoundation.com/journey/

It's a little story that you can click and read on how man spread. One such spread was the bearing land bridge. The use of tools spread through one ice age.

It's all their, including the near extinction of man. That was one event.

(V): You have no point. You ramble around in circles. You don't stay on point. And nothing you bla bla around will change that fact.

What was the geologists main thesis? That's what's being discussed. NOT dinosaurs and hedgehogs.

You've gone off the cliff.

(V): I know what roadkill is, but are they more clever in NZ than they are in UK? they were introduced to NZ and are now a pest...*shakes head*

no need to look on giggle...bing is the go.

Artful Dodger: Yes we are and I get this every time when I have a point on here.

I can't help remembering things.

Bernice: It's called roadkill Bernice, there was a day when our roads were littered with dead hedgehogs. Scientists who study hedgehogs(it was on the news) are now saying that many are learning to not crawl into a ball which is a natural trait when they feel threatened. And a car.. especially at nights with headlamps is a threat.. so they feel.

Hence .. roadkill.

If you look on google you'll find the story.

(V): No. It's rambling nonsense. It avoid the topic entirely. We aren't even talking about any of those silly things you've drawn into the conversation. Bunny trails NOT welcome.

(V): where did you get the bit about hedgehogs "learning" not to crawl into a ball? They only turn themselves into a ball if they are threatened, how do they know a car is a threat? and why hasnt it happened in NZ...they do have cars there you know. LOL

CCP*****Hedgehogs are a powerful form of pest control. A single hedgehog can keep an average garden free of pests by eating up to 200 grams of insects each night. It is common throughout the United Kingdom to see people attempting to lure hedgehogs into their gardens with treats and hedgehog-sized holes in their fences.[citation needed]

One problem with using hedgehogs for garden pest control is the use of chemical insecticide. While the hedgehog is large enough to resist most insecticides, it cannot withstand them if it eats many insects which have become full of the poison. This causes many hedgehog deaths where pet hedgehogs eat contaminated bugs within the house.

In areas where hedgehogs have been introduced, such as New Zealand and the islands of Scotland, the hedgehog itself has become a pest. In New Zealand it causes immense damage to native species including insects, snails, lizards and ground-nesting birds, particularly shore birds. As with many introduced animals, it lacks natural predators. With overpopulation, it kills off more insects than initially intended and expands its diet to include things such as snails, worms, and the eggs of wading birds.

Correcting overpopulation is troublesome itself. Attempts to eliminate hedgehogs from bird colonies on the Scottish islands of North Uist and Benbecula in the Outer Hebrides were met with international outrage. Eradication began in 2003 with 690 hedgehogs being killed. Animal welfare groups attempted rescues to save the hedgehogs. By 2007, legal injunctions against the killing of hedgehogs were put in place. In 2008, the elimination process was changed from killing the hedgehogs to trapping them and releasing on the mainland.

Artful Dodger: Ok... it is a fact that we are an adaptive species.. skin colour being one, hence as man left Africa and travelled far away our skin change to match our surroundings. It is a fact that during ice ages man did travel to escape (survival technique) and hence grew stronger. Man then as such became a stronger more adaptable race, hence our ability to travel to the four corners of the earth. The way Africa's climate changed, led to man moving.

........ An opinion based on what has learnt as being held as historic fact from findings by geologists is fine. But to distort the significance of the event on human existence by taking that many humans died during the ice ages as a decline, rather than a time of hardening and strengthening as nature doth provide from time to time. The dinosaurs opened up the way for mammals, yet at cost of much of life on Earth. But some survived.

For example... the humble hedgehog here has been in decline, but now.. they are learning not to crawl into a ball when on a road. Hence those hedgehogs that do not, and instead run are transferring that trait unto their descendants and the population is now on the increase.

Do you see the basis for my opinion now??

(V): Stating an opinion and then stating something as a fact (which you have done here) are not the same thing. You claim that the scientist's data was flawed. That's not an opinion. You are making an assertion. Either the scientist did overlook what you said he did, or he didn't. You can't have an opinion on that. It's either a fact that he did, or a fact that he didn't. Now you claim he DID. So it's reasonable to expect you to offer some proof of that claim.

C&P is fine as long as it's not your argument. Pointing out studies or articles (which we all do) is fine.

Artful Dodger: That link based on old data. Sure that's great You are saying having an opinion is bad?

Shall we all stop posting then?? And I thought having an opinion was better then c&p stuff!! Look.. have I missed a memo?

And V, look back. I already posted the link long ago.

(V): In other words your claims aren't really based on any fact, just your generalized opinion based on your own narrow experience.

Artful Dodger: I'm just going by what I've learnt of our history as a species. By what I've seen and learnt of how important it is that we are a race (as such) with now no natural predators.

And by what the link Czuch posted.

Seems guys on both sides of the global warming debate are making money out of this business.

And can you provide a link to that 2005 article you are going on about? I thought you would have least done that.

(V): I'm curious. How do you know he ignores anything? Which of his books have you read and which of his papers have you studied?

Czuch: Well that Ice ages made us spread more about the world tends to make his thoughts a little nuts. As to random.. that's only due to lack of info over how.

Plus he ignores that we are the first race on this planet to be able to change significantly our surroundings, such as deforestation.. The dust bowl somewhat shows what can happen. That farmers here are restoring the use of natural predators regarding bugs that attack crops, which cuts down on the need of pesticides.

I agree, the carbon footprint thing is a bit crazy in certain respects, but it's also leading to a cut down in fuel usage by making cars more economical.

Czuch: Many scientists know the truth about the global warming con but don't speak up because they universities they work for would possibly lose some funding or even their jobs could be in jeopardy. Politicians that talk about global warming as if it is man made are ignorant. They don't know. They've not studied the issue. They, like so many, jump on the band wagon. And in the end, if they get their way, we will pay big bucks.

Locally we are being forced to recycle. Now my rates have gone up. I have to recycle through the government or I will pay a fine. Never mind that for years I've recycled everything that's possible to recycle. No exceptions. So what I used to do for free, I now have to pay for.

It's only the beginning. There will be more nonsense from the government. Where there's a buck to be made, they will try to make it. Note the new term "carbon footprint." What the heck is that? It's mumbo-jumbo. They are morons. A bunch of fools.

Some idiot from Hollywood was interviewed and she talked about using less toilet paper. Seriously? If she's using less, then I'll use more. What an idiot. That's as bad as the PETA fool who complained about the Seattle fish market that is well known for throwing and catching of the fish they sell. The guy actually called the dead fish a cadaver. And how would you feel if we did that same thing to humans?

Another idiot. So I went out and bought a fish from the local market and we played a game of "fishball" with it. A few swings of the bat and that fish was mush. I packaged it up and sent it to PETA. With some crackers.

Ok, just kidding on that but it makes ya wanna puke sometimes.

This guy in Australia is right on as far as I am concerned....

http://www.vancouversun.com/news/Global+warming+religion+First+World+urban+elites/1835847/story.html

Vikings: 1) needs sorting out I agree, the whole USA system of sue needs capping. Something that over here we've had.

2) Our gov uses a similar system to get part time workers into full time employment. It works. But as to people shopping around for a doc... This is a Hippocratic situation and as such I feel set limits on what doc's can charge should be limited.

3) I thought was already somewhat in place. All UK people are advised as a matter of course to take out medical insurance when visiting another country to which they are not covered automatically. Also.. if this recharge was in place then as such then every country ought to do the same.

Our docs have a sign that if you have medical insurance to tell them.

Artful Dodger: Then show it, and it's source and how they collected the data.

gogul: Nahhhh though being part of European history it's been a big subject of study. Both pre WWII and post WWII. Also due it being a hot topic, many documentaries have been made about it that I've seen. Plus live info... such as the fall of the Berlin wall.

That was a great day!!

Czuch: I'm in favor of regional care. If a region should be overwhelmed, it has to be properly analized what's wrong. Take the swine flue as example. Responsable for the swine flue is the WHO itself, the pharmaindustry in hope of business, the concentration of the animal husbandry to a few factories with 5000 swines and more, where this virus actally comes from. It's called causative principle, and the bill of the doc because of the swine flue, send it to Smithfield.

In 1965, 53 million US-swines were allocated in 1 million farms. This is a situation where every homeless, vagant, migrant labor could find roof and food. Today, 65 million swines are allocated in 65'000 factories, the half of them with more than 5000 animals.

Oversized flocks increase the possibility for new mutations of flues able to transfer from human to human. We know this since many years, it is neo conservative market logic who did sabotage this knowledge.

The US company Smithfield in Veracruz, Mexico, this is where the swineflue comes from, and it's by far no surprise. We have been warned that this would happen.

Vikings: Sounds good to me.... my biggest fear is something catastrophic happening, and I dont have any insurance for it..... but to have to pay such high prices for insurance to cover things like a visit when i need stitches for a cut, its not worth it for a young person in good health, its cheaper to just pay as you use.

Vikings:

I was at the docs today and in the waiting room is a sign: This facility serves everyone regardless of ability to pay.

That's typical of many, if not most practices.

(V): a 2005 article isn't that old.

Bernice:

Vikings: I love your number 3 idea..........makes sense LOL

1. Tort reform

2. Medical Savings Accounts
this serves 4 purposes, first of all it gives an incentive to not frivolously go to the doctor for minor stuff, for instance, currently doctors are over prescribing antibiotics for viruses which both waste money and break down the immune system.
Secondly, it acts as a potential bonus retirement fund, unused money comes back tax free.
Thirdly, It fully covers catastrophic conditions which is what insurance is really meant for, not every day stuff.
And lastly, it would bring down the cost of doctor visits because it would promote people to shop around for the best value, (free market).

3. and one of the most important things, any one that doesn't have documentation of legal residency gets whatever medical service they need, the bill gets sent to their legal country of citizenship and to make sure that their government pays, the money is decucted from the aid that we give them, this solves more than one problem, first it covers 12-20 million of the 45 million uncovered, it would lessen the immigration problem as governments would no longer encourage their people to come here, and it would bring down cost that every one of us have to absorb.

This isn't the total fix but I'll bet this would get us most of the way there

gogul: I'll have to check if that's allowed with the Tooting Popular Front.

gogul: "Citizen Smith" has been informed

When I was younger I was confused. When I was 20 I was done with it. I had to read about communism, found the art side as well, beheld a plan. Interesting, my spirit wasn't satisfied though, with 18 I had to go elsewhere, I'm there since '99, I'm 33 now. I'm happy inside, my basic knowledge since 20 years.

Communism is a cheap and violent copy of a several 1000 years old wish, the wish lighted up a little while 100 years ago. What a nonsense the past 100 years, all for a bad illustration. Communism is a intrigue and the wish to insult God in its inner essence.

Communism is past. What disturbs is the twist of definition. Socialism. I'm not a academic mind, allowes me to find words. Social belongs to "Hey, what can I do for you", not the powerhungry plastering of command economy.

Socialists are somewhat confused. What could socialists do for all of us? Hunt little fishes like Madoff as chill pill for the people? Now that is opium for the people! How about touching the real thing. What has Oswald Grubel lost in Switzerland anyway. What has the east German intelligenzia lost everywhere but the former DDR countries? The Germans from the west pay a hard share and build you a valid infrastructure in your homelands. Go back to grandma, do something for your health, it's in everyones lifespan we do await the big big knive, since ever. I *can* await, no hurry *here*, relax *here*.

What do you people stick to you bad concience, I don't get it. Make steps, steps back that is as well. Be social, ask "What can I do for you.", what do you expect? Heal your self if you don't get it, our mind that is.

Artful Dodger: Then show it, and it's source and how they collected the data.

I know how easily some figures can be distorted. Show me it isn't and I'll believe you. But our papers agree with what I'm saying.. even Murdoch's bunch are quiet.. surprisingly

gogul:

(V): My data is current.

Artful Dodger: No, your stats are old regarding waiting figures. I read and checked the 2008 figures

And yes we have 24/7 health coverage... A person here has the right to be seen at any time of the day by a doctor, some clinics only run during days.. but they tend to be pre booked clinics to see specialists. Otherwise A&E is open 24/7 for serious problems. After hours GP's, etc, etc, etc.

It's no good just reading some old thought from a hater of universal health care and expect things to add up.. they won't!!

And if your courts are so plugged up... why hasn't anyone done something before? Why didn't Bush, Raygun, Bush sr, Carter, Clinton, etc??
And will that fix all the high costs in your system.. it's a start I feel, but not a total fix.

I go into the doc office for weekly allergy shots. 6 months ago I was give two shots. The nurse told me I was on maintenance and was at two shots now. The next week she had me back to one. It was then I knew something happened. I had the office check into it and sure enough, they accidentally gave me someone else's shot medicine. A double dose at that!

Could I have sued them? Yes and I'd have gotten some money out of it. How much? Don't know -don't care. What did I do? Simple: brought it to their attention and they dealt with it. Fortunately I wasn't harmed.

But some people will simply see such a thing as an opportunity to make money. And the courts will side with the patient who was wronged. If a woman can get millions for a hot coffee spill (which she spilled on herself!) then how much could I have gotten having been given the wrong medicine. It could have killed me. Each medicine is made in the lab specifically for the particular patient. I was given someone else's meds and that is a huge no no. When I told my allergist, she freaked.

Just because a mistake is done it doesn't follow that one is entitled to compensation. Stuff happens and people ought to suck it up and move on. If harm IS brought about to a patient, the hospital/doctor's office ought to take care of any medical or loss wadges cost etc. But to make someone a millionaire because of a small mistake (especially when there is no permanent harm) is simply wrong. And make no mistake, those millions people make on these greedy lawsuits, YOU AND I pay for them. So if you're in favor so such nonsense, then you can't complain about the high cost of insurance or medications or doctor's fees etc. You can't have it both ways.

Tort reform.

(V): "What Art is missing is that the USA have the ability to look at various systems and (if politicians use their brains and not their parties) sort out the basis for a system that will be cheaper to run. Despite Art's saying "it'll cost too much".. your current system already does, as their is an element of companies taking the mickey over what you pay in private health insurance."

No, I agree that the cost is too high. And I agree that there is much honest politicians can do to fix the problem. But Obama's plan is too costly. It won't work. We can't sustain the high cost. There are so many bad factors playing into his plan that it boggles the mind.

Tort reform is a place to start IMO. Get the costs to the doctors and hospitals down. But Obama would rather not touch that one. He's willing to allow unrestricted access to the courts even though it's clear that frivolous lawsuits clog up the courts. There ought to be a cap on how much one can sue for and if one loses their lawsuit, they ought to pay the expenses - all of them. Perhaps the lawyers who lose the case for their clients should have to pay all the costs. Greedy lawyers suing for hangnails.

(V): Yes, you have 24/7 health care meaning they are open 24/7. NOT that you can get in any time because you can't. And you are simply wrong about the waiting times. They are months and for some procedures, up to a year or longer.

Your system is a shambles.

Czuch: You have proved nothing Czuch. And I didn't say cheaper was better, just that the point was effectiveness re cost. Eg.. years ago I needed a prescription, the chemist told me it was cheaper to buy it over the counter then via the flat rate prescription cost. So I bought it over the counter.

The USA per citizen pays too much for health coverage, it needs sorting. I think virtually everyone can agree on that point.

Now ... how to sort it. The plans your gov are looking at include everyone paying their bit as well as other systems.

What Art is missing is that the USA have the ability to look at various systems and (if politicians use their brains and not their parties) sort out the basis for a system that will be cheaper to run. Despite Art's saying "it'll cost too much".. your current system already does, as their is an element of companies taking the mickey over what you pay in private health insurance.

Now... If you had a situation to change things so efficient spending was the secondary protocol to Hippocratic Oath.. what would you do?

Imsoaddicted: Many want the matron back, and cut backs that were applied are now being reversed.

And they do have people who will clean that toilet seat on hand, you've just gotta tell the right person to get that cleaner moving. They gave you a non excuse.. It is their job...

They were probably just annoyed someone had not bothered to clean it after making it dirty, or they had missed it.

Artful Dodger: Our waiting lists (if you had done your research properly) were 18 months (as in average waiting times) before Labour took power.. now they are down to about 45 days... In many treatments less. The long waiting times built up due to a change in the management of NHS areas brought on by the previous conservative party in power... everyone has bad ideas!!

Your facts are old and out of date..."period"

And still I see nothing about how to fix the problem from you.

And we still have 24/7 healthcare. People say "this ain't right" and MP's have to use their brains and fix it.

Bernice: i agree with you on this being from the UK
there are many many things wrong with the health service here
first off the nurses are very underpaid
we still have very long waiting lists
hospitals are not clean
they should bring back the Matron IMO
doctors are strenched to the limit

when i was in hospital last year i went to the bathroom and the toilet seat was filthy
i asked the cleaner who was dishing out the mid morning cuppa to sort it out only to told that it wasnt her job on that day
and it would have to wait until the night cleaners came on shift
another 8 hours away

rod03801: Probably when workers fought so hard for better pay and health benefits. It's an insurance pool and the way to keep costs down is to belong to a group insurance policy.

I think there are efforts underway to allow people to use their insurance dollars the way they want.

Artful Dodger: Is there a way for my concern to be addressed though? I don't even understand why health insurance became so tied into one's employment.