HAHAHAHAHAHA

Artful Dodger: Are you falsely claiming that others (including me are) not honest.

We are more honest then you are.

"And it's only been used twice and only in extreme circumstances."

I hear on three people so far (requires more investigation to reasonably confirm numbers), and the number of times on two people was 266 times. It can kill or even cause damage to the lungs and brain.

The technique of waterboarding or any kind of torture is against what Christ taught, by nature of what it says in the Bible. Even when arrested Christ healed the ear of one of the arresting party that one of his buddies had cut off.

If you cannot accept Christ's words then go back to being a non Christian please, as you are giving Christians a bad name.

Artful Dodger:

> You have to twist history for that (and you do and have).

How have I twisted history? Christians fought wars for wealth and empire. They came to the Americas and exterminated entire cultures to convert the native inhabitants into Christians. Christians fought wars during the Reformation and even in our present era conflicts between Protestants and Catholics remain. Christians burned people at the stake, they tortured people, forced people to convert to their religion against their will. Christians prosecuted Jews, Moslems, Gypsies, and other religious minorities.

These are not twisted historical facts. These are well-known historical facts.

> I don't defend war for the purpose of building empires or extracting commodities.

What was your stance on the war in Iraq? Did you see it as right or wrong? I hope that you did not celebrate its arrival like many Americans did. The Bush administration lied to the American people and carried on a war of empire building and oil supply control. Let's say for a moment that I am wrong. War of any kind should be abhorrent to any Christian. Violence of any kind should be abhorrent to any Christian. That is the core of the Sermon on the Mount. So can any war be justified on political or ideological grounds?

> By being against that, you would be in favor of seeing innocent people die rather than some low-life terrorist experience a few moments of fearful discomfort.

Now I will use fear to compromise my faith. I am afraid of terrorists, so I will justify an act of violence. I know that in the real world there are cruel people, but does that justify being violent? I see these politicians saying that they are Christians, then they turn around and justify violence out of political motives and fear. I suppose God makes exceptions when higher ideals are used to justify violence, physical or psychological.

> Gun ownership is legal.

I am not talking about the law or the constitution. I am talking about true Christian values. Is it a Christian value to say that it is OK for a person to buy and learn to use a lethal weapon? I will hide behind the constitution and say that something that is unChristian is acceptable because it is legal. Pornography is legal. It is legal to buy it, own it, see it, etc. Does that make pornography acceptable to a Christian?

I bring these things up not to put you on the spot, or to make Christianity look bad. I bring them up because I think a lot of people make compromises with their beliefs. There are many things that deep inside we know how wrong they are. Yet we justify them in the name of higher ideals. We hide behind those higher principles to do wrong.

That is precisely what terrorists do. These people know that killing is wrong. They know it is unacceptable to their version of God and their religion. But they do it in the name of some ideology.

Cristians might tell themselves that they are better, but are they really? How can a Christian make that claim when that person has compromised the core principles of Christianity in the name of politics, ideology or abstract ideals?

5. [Thereon] out of the Light . . . 1 a Holy Word (Logos) 2 descended on that Nature. And upwards to the height from the Moist Nature leaped forth pure Fire; light was it, swift and active too. The Air, too, being light, followed after the Fire; from out the Earth-and-Water rising up to Fire so that it seemed to hang therefrom. But Earth-and-Water stayed so mingled each with other, that Earth from Water no one could discern. 3 Yet were they moved to hear by reason of the Spirit-Word (Logos) pervading them.

6. Then saith to me Man-Shepherd: Didst understand this Vision what it means?

Nay; that shall I know, I said. That Light, He said, am I, thy God, Mind, prior to Moist Nature which appeared from Darkness; the Light-Word (Logos) [that appeared] from Mind is Son of God.

p. 6

What then?—say I. Know that what sees in thee 1 and hears is the Lord’s Word (Logos); but Mind is Father-God. Not separate are they the one from other; just in their union [rather] is it Life consists.

(V): I understand that thank you

Mousetrap: It's a case of "us and them" when you believe "us and them" it makes it easy to justify hurting "them". Once you start believing "them" then it becomes easier to make more divisions. Hence "legion", or as otherwise stated.. separatism.

Oneness accepts and knows, all is God.. even though you may not understand it all, which is part of acceptance.

Tuesday:

The point I am trying to make is that some Christians (not all) want to portray Islam as evil. Art keeps on going about how bad Islam is, how violent it is, etc. However, he is incapable of admitting that Christianity has been just as rotten through its history. Before pointing the finger at Islam, Art should take a hard look at Christianity and all the "compromises" and "excuses". He defends waterboarding, gun posession, war for building empires and extracting commodities, etc. He can't explain to us how all those right wing beliefs of his reconcile with Christ's true teachings. It is easier to hide behind "democracy, "constitution", or "Islam is bad", than to admit that much of what he believes is as unChristian as beliefs come.

(V): I will have to think about that one. But can you explain it another way please for as you know English to others may be different for me.

Tuesday: It means an acceptance of all religions. "Live and let live" In other words does it really matter if they are christian or atheist as long as they respect others and are caring to other human beings?
A very good thing that the children of the law of one believe. Imagine someone you know, and imagine a world filled with that same person. Would it be a caring world or a bad world? Would they harm others just because they are differnt or would they live and let live if that person is doing nothing to harm another human being regardless of their religious belief, sexual orientation, colour etc etc.

(V): Am more than half way through it. My neighbour from down below(I am in upstairs flat he is underneath, very nice young man, lives on his own, name is Jason) told me about it and uploaded it to my laptop. I was surprised at how much my interpretation of "God" was the same before I had even read the book.
Boring in places though, as it tends to repeat.

Christian terrorism comprises terrorist acts by groups or individuals who claim Christian motivations or goals for their actions. As with other forms of religious terrorism, Christian terrorists have relied on idiosyncratic or literalistic interpretations of the tenets of faith—in this case, the Bible. Such groups have used Old Testament and New Testament scriptures to justify violence or to seek to bring about the "end times" described in the New Testament, while others have hoped to bring about a Christian theocracy.

The National Liberation Front of Tripura (NLFT), a rebel group operating in Tripura, North-East India, has been described as engaging in terrorist violence motivated by their Christian beliefs. [8] It is classified by the National Memorial Institute for the Prevention of Terrorism as one of the ten most active terrorist groups in the world, and has been accused of forcefully converting people to Christianity.[9][10] The insurgency in Nagaland was led by the National Socialist Council of Nagaland (NSCN) and continues today with its faction NSCN–Isaac Muivah, which explicitly calls for a "Nagalim for Christ".[11] The state government reports that the Baptist Church of Tripura supplies arms and gives financial support to the NLFT.[9][10][12] In April 2000, the secretary of the Noapara Baptist Church in Tripura, Nagmanlal Halam, was arrested with a large quantity of explosives. He confessed to illegally buying and supplying explosives to the NLFT for two years.[13] This church is reported to have encouraged the NLFT to murder Hindus, particularly infants.[12] The NLFT has threatened to kill Hindus celebrating the annual five-day religious festival of Durga Puja and other religious celebrations.[14]

Hutaree was a Christian militia group based in Adrian, Michigan. In 2010, after an FBI agent infiltrated the group, nine of its members were indicted by a federal grand jury in Detroit on charges of seditious conspiracy to use of improvised explosive devices, teaching the use of explosive materials, and possessing a firearm during a crime of violence.

The Lord's Resistance Army, a cult guerrilla army engaged in an armed rebellion against the Ugandan government, has been accused of using child soldiers and committing numerous crimes against humanity; including massacres, abductions, mutilation, torture, rape, porters, and sex slaves.[34] A quasi-religious movement that mixes some aspects of Christian and Islamic beliefs with its own brand of spiritualism,[35] it is led by Joseph Kony, who proclaims himself the spokesperson of God and a spirit medium, primarily of the "Holy Spirit" which the Acholi believe can represent itself in many manifestations.[page needed][36][36][37][38] LRA fighters wear rosary beads and recite passages from the Bible before battle

Artful Dodger: You shall not murder... No.6 on the list of the BIG top 10

So you die, go to heaven and say to God "I killed a bastard" ...

N' St Peter says...

Mousetrap: It says as such in the Bible.. division is legion as it allows people to start justifying treating others with evilness.

"I read the children of the law of one."

Good read then?

Tuesday: Yet such as jealousy is just a manifestation of our human bio chemical processes. God, unless you count the universe is not of physical form, just manifest in physical form through the universe.

Some of the way we attribute certain emotions to God is based on the old Gods of Rome and Greece. As a means to show we have them and the control they exert on us.

Artful Dodger:

> You say its torture, I say it's not. I want my government to have in its toolbox the right, under presidential order, to use waterboarding.

If somebody waterboarded your children, would it be torture or a mere firendly questioning? I will belive that waterboarding is not torture on the day that Dick Cheney allows himself to be waterboarded publicly on national TV.

You threaten somebody with death, you do it over and over until they confess. You could do it pointing a gun to their head, or holding a knife to their throat, or pretending to drown them. It is PSYCHOLOGICAL TORTURE.

But then, a good Christian like you defends it.

All you say to me is:

"The STATE has the right and the responsibility to protect its citizens. The Bible says that the State doens't yield the sword for nothing. Meaning that it has the power and responsibility for social order etc."

Can you show me where it says that? Or is it (like much of what passes as the Bible) a misinterpretation of a passage out of context?

You are a Christian. Are nuclear weapons right or wrong? If you say they are an acceptable deterrent, can you explain to me HOW that conforms with your Christian ethic. You say Chirst is all about loving one's neighbor. Well, are 100 megatons more love than 20 megatons?

As for guns, you say it is a constitutional right and many good Christians own guns. Following the example of Jesus, those people own lethal weapons and use them "responsibly". I wonder if Jesus carried a sword and used it "responsibly".

you said that Islam is a religion of violence and that it has perpetrated violence throught its history. If that is the case, and considering your poor excuses for the rotten things Christians have done, Christianity reduces itself to a religion that preaches love, but in reality exercises hypocrisy.

Mousetrap: well that IS the safe way isn't it LOL

Bernice: It depends. I supposed some people thought Jesus was weird too back in his day.
My motto is when in Rome.

Mousetrap: religious cranks have weird ideas I have found.....

Tuesday: I have always believed that being created in his image meant we are all Gods. All one. And I believed that years before I read the children of the law of one.

1. [Hermes.] Concerning Soul and Body, son, we now must speak; in what way Soul is deathless, and whence comes the activity 1 in composing and dissolving Body.

For there’s no death for aught of things [that are]; the thought [this] word conveys, is either void of fact, or [simply] by the knocking off a syllable what is called “death,” doth stand for “deathless.” 2

p. 125

For death is of destruction, and nothing in the Cosmos is destroyed. For if Cosmos is second God, a life 1 that cannot die, it cannot be that any part of this immortal life should die. All things in Cosmos are parts of Cosmos, and most of all is man, the rational animal.

2. For truly first of all, eternal and transcending birth, is God the universals’ Maker. Second is he “after His image,” Cosmos, brought into being by Him, sustained and fed by Him, made deathless, as by his own Sire, living for aye, as ever free from death.

Now that which ever-liveth, differs from the Eternal; for He 2 hath not been brought to being by another, and even if He have been brought to being, He hath not been brought into being by Himself, but ever is brought into being.

For the Eternal, in that It is eternal, is the all. The Father is Himself eternal of Himself, but Cosmos hath become eternal and immortal by the Father.



........... Must be true.. It's in a book!!

I remember my chemistry books saying electrons were such predictable items in terms of their motion. Yet another fact in a book. So it must be true.

.. Yet understanding has improved, so it is not.

Some old books say the world is flat.. another fact!!

Artful Dodger: Mein Kampf is a book. Written by Adolf Hitler.

Artful Dodger: The west taught them to be murders. They are our own demons come back to haunt us. We gave them the training, the arms necessary to murder Russians. We created a loose canon.

From the Washington post.

Plus torture is unreliable.
Army Col. Stuart Herrington, a military intelligence specialist who conducted interrogations in Vietnam, Panama and Iraq during Desert Storm

"In his experience, nine out of 10 people can be persuaded to talk with no "stress methods" at all, let alone cruel and unusual ones. Asked whether that would be true of religiously motivated fanatics, he says that the "batting average" might be lower: "perhaps six out of ten." And if you beat up the remaining four? "They'll just tell you anything to get you to stop.""

The article then goes to say....

Worse, you'll have the other side effects of torture. It "endangers our soldiers on the battlefield by encouraging reciprocity." It does "damage to our country's image" and undermines our credibility in Iraq. That, in the long run, outweighs any theoretical benefit. Herrington's confidential Pentagon report, which he won't discuss but which was leaked to The Post a month ago, goes farther. In that document, he warned that members of an elite military and CIA task force were abusing detainees in Iraq, that their activities could be "making gratuitous enemies" and that prisoner abuse "is counterproductive to the Coalition's efforts to win the cooperation of the Iraqi citizenry." Far from rescuing Americans, in other words, the use of "special methods" might help explain why the war is going so badly.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A2302-2005Jan11.html

Tuesday: Everyone is taught in the USA in how to deal with all their bio chemical responses? Fight/Flight, Jealousy, Greed, Herd reflex, etc? How to understand their conscious, subconscious and unconscious and keep it all in mind?

He created us in his own image... what that is people try to define. God is supposed to have killed.. then how does that make killing evil, unless you are going to call God evil.

using the same way as the "emperors new cloths fable"

Artful Dodger: Just to expose you for what you really are... which is obvious to all

Artful Dodger: There is no bigger waste of time then discussion with bigots and racists with your type

Artful Dodger: Your statement "the Arab world stands near the bottom of every measure of human development. " is offensive and shows your bias

Tuesday: It says in the OT that God creates the good and the bad/evil ... the exact last word varies depending on the translation.

Tuesday: And what if the murderer is due to the result of years of abuse with no help? What if the terrors done to them is a daily nightmare in their brain? How does God judged them?

"Watching the news makes me want it to end....abuse of animals and kids etc."

Yet it is all part of the plan... even the bits we hate.

20 “See, I am sending an angel ahead of you to guard you along the way and to bring you to the place I have prepared. 21 Pay attention to him and listen to what he says. Do not rebel against him; he will not forgive your rebellion, since my Name is in him. 22 If you listen carefully to what he says and do all that I say, I will be an enemy to your enemies and will oppose those who oppose you. 23 My angel will go ahead of you and bring you into the land of the Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Canaanites, Hivites and Jebusites, and I will wipe them out. 24 Do not bow down before their gods or worship them or follow their practices. You must demolish them and break their sacred stones to pieces. 25 Worship the LORD your God, and his blessing will be on your food and water. I will take away sickness from among you, 26 and none will miscarry or be barren in your land. I will give you a full life span.

27 “I will send my terror ahead of you and throw into confusion every nation you encounter. I will make all your enemies turn their backs and run. 28 I will send the hornet ahead of you to drive the Hivites, Canaanites and Hittites out of your way. 29 But I will not drive them out in a single year, because the land would become desolate and the wild animals too numerous for you. 30 Little by little I will drive them out before you, until you have increased enough to take possession of the land.

Exodus 32
5 Moses saw that the people were running wild and that Aaron had let them get out of control and so become a laughingstock to their enemies. 26 So he stood at the entrance to the camp and said, “Whoever is for the LORD, come to me.” And all the Levites rallied to him.

27 Then he said to them, “This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: ‘Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.’” 28 The Levites did as Moses commanded, and that day about three thousand of the people died. 29 Then Moses said, “You have been set apart to the LORD today, for you were against your own sons and brothers, and he has blessed you this day.”

30 The next day Moses said to the people, “You have committed a great sin. But now I will go up to the LORD; perhaps I can make atonement for your sin.”

31 So Moses went back to the LORD and said, “Oh, what a great sin these people have committed! They have made themselves gods of gold. 32 But now, please forgive their sin—but if not, then blot me out of the book you have written.”

33 The LORD replied to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against me I will blot out of my book. 34 Now go, lead the people to the place I spoke of, and my angel will go before you. However, when the time comes for me to punish, I will punish them for their sin.”

35 And the LORD struck the people with a plague because of what they did with the calf Aaron had made.

There is no doubt that the Qur’an has a number of belligerent verses, like 8:12, for example. Yet, as I have explained in the past, these verses have a context. Once the context is understood, the verses are clearly understood. Yet, before I go into verse 8:12, I must explain a bit about the process of revelation of the Qur’an. The Qur’an was not revealed all at once in toto. Rather, it was gradually sent down over a period of 23 years. During that period, the community of believers evolved and specific situations came up, to which the Qur’anic text frequently responded. That is why the Qur’an seems to be fragmented if one reads the book from cover to cover. The Qur’an, in fact, mentions this gradual process:

“God - there is no deity save Him, the Ever-Living, the Self-Subsistent Fount of All Being! Step by step has He bestowed upon thee [O Muhammad] from on high this divine writ, setting forth the truth which confirms whatever there still remains (of earlier revelations): for it is He who has bestowed from on high the Torah and the Gospel” (3:2-3).

This is important to understand when reading verse 8:12. This verse - along with several ahead of it - was revealed in reference to the Battle of Badr, the first major battle between the Muslims and the Meccan pagans around 625 C.E. A little background is in order.

After the Prophet (pbuh) and his followers were expelled from Mecca and migrated to Yathrib (now known as Medina), a city 300 miles to the north, the Meccans seized all the property of the Muslims that was left in Mecca. This was an act of open war. When the Prophet learned that a large caravan of the Meccans was coming from Syria near Medina, he intended to attack it. Abu Sufyan, who was leading the caravan, learned of this planned attack and sent word to Mecca for protection. His fellow Meccans sent an army, and they met in battle at Badr. The Muslims handily defeated the Meccans, killing almost all of the most important leaders of Mecca.

Now, verse 8:12 comes into clearer focus. The verse speaks about what God told the angels to say to the believers, in order to inspire them before the battle. The Muslims were very fearful, especially since the Meccans were thrice their number, battle hardened, and much better equipped. This becomes even clearer when the verse is read in context:

[9]: Lo! You were praying unto your Sustainer for aid, whereupon He thus responded to you: “I shall, verily, aid you with a thousand angels following one upon another!”

[10]: And God ordained this only as a glad tiding, and that your hearts should thereby be set at rest - since no succour can come from any save God: verily, God is almighty, wise!

[11]: [Remember how it was] when He caused inner calm to enfold you, as an assurance from Him, and sent down upon you water from the skies, so that He might purify you thereby and free you from Satan’s unclean whisperings and strengthen your hearts and thus make firm your steps.

[12]: Lo! Thy Sustainer inspired the angels [to convey this His message to the believers]: “I am with you! [And He commanded the angels:] “And give firmness unto those who have attained to faith (with these words from Me:) ‘I shall cast terror into the hearts of those who are bent on denying the truth; strike, then, their necks, and strike off every one of their finger-tips.’” [emphasis added]

See? The verse is clearly speaking about the events surrounding the Battle of Badr. It is not a general command to “strike at the necks of the infidels.” Anyone with an understanding of the history of Islam knows this. When I read these verses, I know that they refer to the Battle of Badr. No where in my mind is there even an inkling of a thought to “strike at the necks of the infidels.”

This reminds me of another verse which is frequently cited by critics of Islam as proof of the Qur’an’ s exhortation to kill those who are not Muslim. In fact, some of these critics even claim that this verse is the scriptural basis for the brutal and inhuman practice of beheading now common in Iraq and Afghanistan:

“smite their (the infidels) necks until you overcome them fully, and then tighten their bonds” (47:4)

This could not be farther from the truth. Now, I purposely quoted only part of the verse out of context to show how misleading this tactic is. The full verse reads:

“Now when you meet [in war] those who are bent on denying the truth (commonly translated as “the infidels”) smite their necks until you overcome them fully, and then tighten their bonds; but thereafter [set them free] either by an act of grace or against ransom, so that the burden of war may be lifted: thus [shall it be]. And [know that] had God so willed, He could indeed punish them [Himself]; but [He wills you to struggle] so as to test you [all] by means of one another. And as for those who are slain in God’s cause, never will He let their deeds go to waste.” (47:4)

This verse, like 8:12, is speaking about the believers’ conduct in an open battle against the enemy. God is “psyching up” the believers before a battle, just like American soldiers psych themselves up before they go into combat. It is not an open call to behead all infidels. Once again, when the verse is understood in its context, this becomes obviously clear.

In fact, the verse actually is one of mercy toward the enemy. After the battle is over, during which the believers are to “smite their necks,” the verse directs the believers to set free those who are captured by the Muslims, either “by an act of grace or against ransom.” These captives are avowed enemies, who would have killed the believers if they had the chance. Despite this, however, the verse directs the Muslims to set them free. How, in God’s Most Holy Name, can this verse be one of terror?

Artful Dodger:

> Jesus:
"Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself."
(Matthew 5:14)

Fine, but then, was that why it was OK for Christians to burn at the stake Aztec and Mayan priests?

Or more recently, is that why it was OK for American Christians to support and condone the wars that the US is involved in?

Is that why many christiansbelieve it is OK to use nuclear weapons as a deterrent?

Is that why Sarah Palin (self-described good Christian) believes in it is OK to be in the NRA and it is ok for people to own guns?

Is that why as a good Christian you were defending the psychological torture known as waterboarding?

For those who aren't sure... these posts today are sarcasm

Artful Dodger: Surely we can find a way to wipe off the earth about a billion people or so....Thats what The Lord would want

Artful Dodger: the Arab world stands near the bottom of every measure of human development. You are correct.. they are most definitely just about sub human. Something must be done...a Final Solution for these Semitic savages..what would you propose...mein Herr? Also we must find a way to free Ratko Mladic, surely he was only doing God's will.

a woman in Queens NY left $250,000 in her will to the Doomsday Prophet

Artful Dodger: some people ALL OVER THE WORLD still think that NASA faked it. Area 51 comes to mind.

Artful Dodger: Some people in AMERICA still think that NASA faked it. Some people still think Elvis is alive and living with aliens.. or is an alien.

Some people still think that God is going to end the world .. physically. Some people just like to live in fear

In the 14th century, the French surgeon Guy de Chauliac quoted al-Tasrif over 200 times. Pietro Argallata (d. 1453) described Abū al-Qāsim as "without doubt the chief of all surgeons". Abū al-Qāsim's influence continued for at least five centuries, extending into the Renaissance, evidenced by al-Tasrif's frequent reference by French surgeon Jacques Delechamps (1513–1588).[citation needed]

The street in Córdoba where he lived is named in his honor as "Calle Albucasis". On this street he lived in house no. 6, which is preserved today by the Spanish Tourist Board with a bronze plaque (awarded in January 1977) which reads: "This was the house where lived Abul-Qasim."[citation needed]

Abu al-Qasim Khalaf ibn al-Abbas Al-Zahrawi (936–1013), (Arabic: أبو القاسم بن خلف بن العباس الزهراوي‎) also known in the West as Abulcasis, was an Andalusian Arab physician. He is considered the greatest medieval surgeon to have appeared from the Islamic World, and has been described by some as the father of modern surgery.[1] His comprehensive medical texts shaped both Islamic and European surgical procedures up until the Renaissance. His greatest contribution to history is the Kitab al-Tasrif, a thirty-volume encyclopedia of medical practices.[2]

Not always properly credited, Abū Al-Qāsim's al-Tasrif described both what would later became known as "Kocher's method" for treating a dislocated shoulder and "Walcher position" in obstetrics. Al-Tasrif described how to ligature blood vessels almost 600 years before Ambroise Paré, and was the first recorded book to document several dental devices and explain the hereditary nature of haemophilia.[citation needed] He was also the first to describe a surgical procedure for ligating the temporal artery for migraine, also almost 600 years before Pare recorded that he had ligated his own temporal artery for headache that conforms to current descriptions of migraine.[citation needed] Abū al-Qāsim was therefore the first to describe the migraine surgery procedure that is enjoying a revival in the 21st century, spearheaded by Elliot Shevel a South African surgeon.

Abū al-Qāsim also described the use of forceps in vaginal deliveries.[3] He introduced over 200 surgical instruments.[4] Many of these instruments were never used before by any previous surgeons. Hamidan, for example, listed at least twenty six innovative surgical instruments that Abulcasis introduced.[citation needed]

His use of catgut for internal stitching is still practised in modern surgery. The catgut appears to be the only natural substance capable of dissolving and is acceptable by the body. Abū al-Qāsim also invented the forceps for extracting a dead fetus, as illustrated in the Al-Tasrif.[5]

Glenn Beck on web tv.. yet another web channel

Artful Dodger: So.. that means your previous excuses that torture is justified has now been blown away by your own words.

How do you think Jesus would react to Christians saying torture is ok?