Hi guys I am new here, found some interesting discussion topic here, really excited for further discussions.

The Col: My thoughts exactly. I'm thinking it will never change.

Artful Dodger: And these are Israel's partners in peace?They are raised from infancy to hate, they know nothing else.If the Palestinians truly want peace, allowing a terrorist organization like Hamas to represent them is not the way to achieve it.Hamas doesn't want peace, of peaceful co existence, it would put them out of business

The Col: And they celebrated their success openly.

(V): It's a unique situation , and not based on racism as SA was.Can you imagine the uproar if the Israelis bombed a public transit bus, as the Palestinians did today? and have done so many times in the past.

Washington Times:

...Frantic efforts under way at the moment by assorted diplomats aimed at containing hostilities between Israel and the terrorist enclave known as the Gaza Strip (primarily by blocking Israel’s decisive retaliation) cannot obscure a dismal reality: The crescendo of rockets and missiles unleashed by the Palestinians on Israeli civilians are a predictable repercussion of President Obama’s reckless defense and foreign policies.

Consider how such attacks — and the danger to Israel and to us that is growing by the day — have been aided and abetted by an Obama doctrine that can be described in nine words: Embolden our enemies, undermine our friends, diminish our country.

(V): The fault is not with Israel. Not even an ounce.

The Col: I'm not talking about the 'holocaust' part. But what it creates, just like in South Africa... maybe that'd be the better example.

(V): This is why , comparing Gaza to the Warsaw ghetto is ignorant V , and ignorant you are not.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NcoTlBAjz9s

N' why do Hamas leaders get phone calls off the Israelis telling them their house is gonna get bombed?

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=bd6_1353438382

If they are that bad.....

Artful Dodger: Yes, a small group can. N' maybe if the Israeli's did something about the prosecution/attacks on legit Palestinians from their homes, gave back the lands they've stolen...

.. would the US allow a country to steal land from it?

A cause takes building, being forced to live in a ghetto builds anger.

Google a look at the ghetto's that the Jews were forced to live in the Nazi's.

... this is what gets me. We all know what bad quality of life that was. Why are we supposed to think the ghetto's the Palestinians live in are any better?

(V): a small group can't shoot 100 rockets a day into Israel. And far more than a small group of people put Hamas in power.

Artful Dodger: That's BS.. a small group probably do, as a small group of Israelis would like to wipe out the Palestinians.

From surveys and interviews.. most just wanna live in peace!!

The Col: I couldn't agree more.

Hamas doesn't want peace , it would put them out of business, same with Arafat, that's why he walked on proposals that later were determined to be more than fair.Israel does want peace, it makes no sense for them to want anything other than peaceful co-existence .

So do the math.This is a quote that pretty much sums up the situation

"Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us.
What bothers me most is not that Arabs kill our children, but that they force us to kill theirs"

-Golda Meir

(V): True. However, the only real solution the Palestinians will accept is not the destruction of Israel but the complete destruction of the Jews. They, the Palestinians are the real problem.

Artful Dodger: Different war, different scenario....carpet bombing resulted in the deaths of millions of civilians.

We speak English because we (as in the allies) all fought. N' I doubt if we'd be speaking German if they did win. It'd just be a second language.

(V): I don't know about that. We bombed the hell out of Germany and destroyed their military and their ability to continue their aggression. You speak English as a result.

Artful Dodger: Both are aggressors.

"Just like the Bible said they would in these end days."

Now... don't give me that baloney. Officially.. as in going by dates .. this world Biblically ended 6 years ago.

Bad interpretation.

Iamon lyme: To many in the media, Israel can do no right and the terrorists can do no wrong.

Even some in America (and the world) have suggested that the USA try to "understand" why the terrorists are trying to kill us etc. Why are they so mad at us? If we try to see things from their point of view, maybe they'll stop trying to blow us up.

How about this: We just keep killing as many of them as we can until they are all dead. That sounds like a better plan to me. I couldn't care less why they hate the US. I don't like my neighbors. They have too many animals and they crap in my yard (they animals, not the neighbors). They play loud music and their kids have late night noisy backyard parties when I'm trying to sleep.

But I just ignore them because they have the right to do those things. It's not against the law to own animals and you can play loud music up to a certain time at night. And what would one expect teens to do at night in the summer? Go to bed early? So instead of bombing my neighbor's house I live and let live. I can't tell other people how to live and I have no right to harm them just because they piss me off.

The UN should get that message to the terrorists and put the Arab nations on notice that the world will no longer tolerate their terrorist ways. Oh wait, the Arab nations are in the UN so that won't work will it.

Guess we'll just have to keep killing them back.

Bwild: The bombing of anyone isn't gonna end this 'war'. It'll just make more rEvEnGe.

(V): Yes but the terrorists need to stop initiating and sustaining the conflict. Israel is responding and the terrorists are the aggressors. Perhaps the UN could tell the Arab world to knock it off and leave Israel alone. That will never happen. Too many people hate Israel. Just like the Bible said they would in these end days.

Artful Dodger: mmmmm ... ... In certain respects regarding this problem. I think it's time the UN did tell the US to back any UN action, instead of vetoing it.. like many times in the past.

113 dead, and God knows how many wounded in this round.

Artful Dodger: [ Israel assassinates the bad guys and they get ticked because then they have to train a new top terrorist leader. ]

Have you noticed there are fewer suicide bombings? New recruits are harder to find... and all of the really good ones are dead.

I don't mean to sound sympathic of the terrorists, because I'm not. But there are times I think I've tuned into a day time drama "reality show" when I hear someone feeling their pain in one of those "man in the street interviews". I often hear people saying Israelites should NOT be aggressively defending themselves. Yeah, right... you betcha. If those same bombs were dropping in their neighborhoods, you and I both know those same people would be singing a different story. They've never had to deal with something like that, so they can't even imagine what it's like.

I'm not sure if I've been listening to slanted news reports, or if 50 years of dumbing down the general population really has paid off for the liberal establishment.

Nevertheless, considering the fact that Israel is (and has been) under constant assualt, it would be absurd it they didn't defend themselves.

Bwild: Well likely Iran is behind the bombings in Israel so you're right about bombing Iran. The terrorists want Israel to stop killing its leaders but its leaders are coordinating bombing of Israeli citizens. So Israel assassinates the bad guys and they get ticked because then they have to train a new top terrorist leader.

Artful Dodger: they should be bombing Iran,not Palestine or the Gaza strip.

(V): I don't know. I wouldn't want the UN telling the US what to do.

Artful Dodger: ... tricky. Some Israelis want the two state solution implemented, some don't. But that is something that'll require the UN involved, not direct negotiations.

It needs to be done.

(V): What would you do if you were Israel?

Israel tactics and the Palestinian militants tactics are both manure.

Maybe in 20 years time they'll stop fighting.. or maybe Israel will roll in full throttle and wipe out the Palestinians.

Dirty stupid war that is the truth.

Artful Dodger: that about nails it

And while I'm at it, what is the matter with Israel? Why are they shooting bombs into Gaza??? Are in insane? inhumane?!!! Don't they know that the terrorists of Gaza hide behind women and children?

So what that the terrorists in Gaza are shooting rockets at civilians living in Israel! Big deal!!! That's what terrorists do! duh!!! Get a clue Israel! Those guys in Gaza are terrorists and it's OKAY for terrorists to bomb and kill (Just ask the New York Times). But Israel is NOT made up of terrorists. They are peaceful and peaceful people don't bomb other people not even when they are trying to kill you.

So Israel, stop bombing the terrorists and trying to protect your people and your land. Just built more shelters and hope for the best. Maybe you should give the terrorists what they want and just all drown yourselves into the sea. Or move to Minnesota or something. Maybe Alaska. Or better yet, California.

Then the terrorists will stop killing you in Israel.

(they'll then start killing you in your new land but at least they won't complain about the land of Israel anymore!)

in light of Obama's claims to the contrary, this should matter. It won't matter to most liberals. Sad.

http://www.washingtonguardian.com/what-obama-knew-benghazi

You mean you weren't told it was a video Mr. President?

Bwild: With those big sumo wrestling suits?

Iamon lyme: No.. it's just an observation, and a question. I'd thought you might have dumped the dissing seeing as you hated it.

"Suggesting I could be that shallow is just another example of your desire to hurl insults and demean the people you hate. There really seems to be no limit to the extent you will go to diss anyone who disagrees with you"

I hate!!! another straw man argument from you... a presumption I've corrected several times yet you want to believe I do.

"If your antagonism towards Christianity is allowed here, then show me in the rules where I may not respond to it? For someone who is not shy about calling others hypocrites you have done a fair job of exemplifying that "quality"."

If it is antagonism. It might just be my dark sense of humour.

Bwild: Totally agree :D LOL

shaken hands and makin promises in the wake of Sandy...thousands still without power.
dropped the ball that cost American lives...Bengazi
wants to promote the spokesperson that touted it was due to the film..lol
the guy who made the film..still in jail I believe..
and now the head cia official is caught with his pants down!
what drama!! lol

you two should get a room

(V): [ btw.. ain't all you done Lamon is switched from dissing Christians to dissing anyone who isn't one? ]

Seriously, do you really believe I arbitrarily decided to "switch sides", and for no other reason than to diss a different group of people? Suggesting I could be that shallow is just another example of your desire to hurl insults and demean the people you hate. There really seems to be no limit to the extent you will go to diss anyone who disagrees with you.

Your views on Christians have been tolerated whether the topic calls for it or not, but apparently you have a problem with my addressing your complaints. If I choose to diss the dissers, then so what? If your antagonism towards Christianity is allowed here, then show me in the rules where I may not respond to it? For someone who is not shy about calling others hypocrites you have done a fair job of exemplifying that "quality".

btw.. ain't all you done Lamon is switched from dissing Christians to dissing anyone who isn't one?

You wanted authority?

Iamon lyme: No.

"Shouldn't the question be why am I comfortable with what I see in the Bible and who I believe God is? Or are you the consummate authority on all spiritual matters for yourself and everyone else?"

No.

Iamon lyme: Well that seems to be your stawman argument in a nutshell. .. to use your phrase.

"Neville Chamberlain?"

No... he invented the wheel didn't he... or was it he was a Conservative PM who died in 1940? .. of whom Churchill said...

"Whatever else history may or may not say about these terrible, tremendous years, we can be sure that Neville Chamberlain acted with perfect sincerity according to his lights and strove to the utmost of his capacity and authority, which were powerful, to save the world from the awful, devastating struggle in which we are now engaged. This alone will stand him in good stead as far as what is called the verdict of history is concerned.[204]"

>>>>> Hitler lied, Chamberlain's only real mistake was believing Hitler would live upto his word. The Versailles Treaty was a big mistake.

.... Did you hear that Ford applied for and was paid damages by the US government for damage done to it's German plants by allied bombing.


"So what is your point? Are you saying it's okay to deal with violent organizations if they are internal, but not okay to deal with them if they are not internal? If both will attack you where you live then why make a distinction?"

no... I don't make a distinction.. another strawman.

(V): [ ... it's a matter of the image thing and maintaining the central law of Jesus.. what he said. .. ... Love all that is God. The OT says God is in everything.. how do you get comfortable with that? ]

Don't you mean to say YOU are not comfortable with that? btw, that too was a question... whether a question is rhetorical or not, asking is not the same as putting words into someones mouth.

You appear to be asking "how do I get comfortable" with what you believe the Bible says and who you think God is. Shouldn't the question be why am I comfortable with what I see in the Bible and who I believe God is? Or are you the consummate authority on all spiritual matters for yourself and everyone else?

(V): (V): "Do you believe backing down to bullies and apologizing to them for hurting their little feelings will stop them?" [ Did I say back down.. putting words in my mouth again. ]


Did I say that's what you said? No, I don't think so... do you see anywhere where I might have said you said that?

Sending out a straw man to fight an imaginary straw man is inventive, but not very smart. It was a question, and from my point of view a rhetorical one. Other than a few new age thinkers or perhaps someone who has never had to deal with bullying, I think the answer is obvious. Ever hear of a fellow by the name of Neville Chamberlain?

[ Maybe you should study how the NI war ended. As one who lived through that era before you Americans got to experience terrorism at home .. ... !!! .. .. ok, that is wrong... better to say.. before you got to experience terrorism from an organisation based outside the US. As you did have many internal groups willing to resort to violence. ]

So what is your point? Are you saying it's okay to deal with violent organizations if they are internal, but not okay to deal with them if they are not internal? If both will attack you where you live then why make a distinction?

Iamon lyme: Everyone suffers from that to some degree.. ie a lack of self discipline... that's why God invented meditation.

"and don't want to see the US become just another rat hole for despots to play around with."

Same here.. but you already are.. I could quote a line out of the matrix, but, you might already know it.

"I used to be one those people who would laugh at and demean christians, until I became one."

Rebelliousness...from you've said.. expected.

"I ended up becoming the object of my own scorn. Why do you suppose anyone would do that? Or am I asking you to "think too much"?"

nope... a point in life can trigger things to change.. like who am I.... I got stuck on the surrendering to God for years.. till I realised that God 'is'.

... it's a matter of the image thing and maintaining the central law of Jesus.. what he said. .. ... Love all that is God. The OT says God is in everything.. how do you get comfortable with that?

(V): [ You think too much. ]

It's partly attributable to a mild case of aspergers, a condition I was born with. It can a be a weakness or a strength, depending on how much self discipline I'm willing to exercise.

[ Maybe if I posted videos of me burning bibles and the US flag on a bonfire you will... or make a video of some guy dressed up as Jesus committing various lewd acts. ]

Burning the flag doesn't bother me, because a flag is an inanimate object. I'm only a nationalist in the sense that I live here, and don't want to see the US become just another rat hole for despots to play around with.

In regard to videos or "artwork" or vile comments designed to insult and denigrate my religion, where have you been? I've seen examples of that for most of my life. In fact, I used to be one those people who would laugh at and demean christians, until I became one.

Ironic, huh? I ended up becoming the object of my own scorn. Why do you suppose anyone would do that? Or am I asking you to "think too much"?

btw....

"Do you think someone could charge you with a crime, and have you tossed into jail for saying anything here? I doubt it. But who knows? Fencer might show up with an armed detail of soldiers and capture you in the middle of the night."

If found to be organising or committing a crime through a certain 'fellowship', etc .. yes. But it won't be Fencer. It'd be your local police.

eg .. if someone kept putting details of another person anywhere on this site, as in their name, address, phone numbers, etc. Part of the globals job is to save Fencer from possible law suits by making sure it doesn't happen.

thankfully, most of that lunacy tends to stay on facebook. People killing others over tiffs on that abomination.

Iamon lyme: You think too much.

Don't worry about it. Our respective military commanders understand. Maybe if I posted videos of me burning bibles and the US flag on a bonfire you will... or make a video of some guy dressed up as Jesus committing various lewd acts.

"You make reference to Christians and comparing them with Islamists (?) as though it is somehow relevant.. are we getting ready to delve yet again into the past, to find some historical perspective you believe may shore up your point?"

The now I prefer.

"Do you believe backing down to bullies and appologizing to them for hurting their little feelings will stop them?"

Did I say back down.. putting words in my mouth again.

"Making excuses for them doesn't make them feel all warm and fuzzy inside and wanting to become our friends... it encourages them to ramp up their efforts."

Maybe you should study how the NI war ended. As one who lived through that era before you Americans got to experience terrorism at home .. ... !!! .. .. ok, that is wrong... better to say.. before you got to experience terrorism from an organisation based outside the US. As you did have many internal groups willing to resort to violence.

.. as did many countries before 9/11

Iamon lyme:

EXACTLY

(V): [ ... You do accept that this is true regardless of other events? ]

I might (or might not) if I could understand half of what you say. Unless or until you are able to make yourself clear I'll be responding only to what I think you might be saying.

~ Islamic clerics in UK have been charged (in custody?) with inciting violence. Okay...

~ One was extradited to my country. I don't doubt that.

~ You make reference to Christians and comparing them with Islamists (?) as though it is somehow relevant... are we getting ready to delve yet again into the past, to find some historical perspective you believe may shore up your point?

Here you said: "Such videos as that guy made are not winning hearts and minds."

It isn't his job to "win hearts and minds". Is it YOUR job at this board to "win hearts and minds"? Do you think someone could charge you with a crime, and have you tossed into jail for saying anything here? I doubt it. But who knows? Fencer might show up with an armed detail of soldiers and capture you in the middle of the night.

The youtube video guy is a private citizen, who was spouting off on youtube. That is all he is, and all he did... if anyone (not just the president) wanted to find an offensive video he could use to claim is the cause of a violent attack, how difficult could that be? The president didn't just tell a lie, he told a stupid lie. He wasn't the only one sitting in the situation room. He was surrounded by people who may have been advising him, but everyone was waiting for him to make some kind of decision... because it was HIS decision to make.

~ "They put our troops and civilians at risk. They help recruit more psychos to the terrorist cause."

A youtube video can do all that? Wow... so, the president serves you up a glass of koolaid and you don't hesitate to drink from it. It's remarkable what some people are willing to believe.

Do you believe backing down to bullies and appologizing to them for hurting their little feelings will stop them? Making excuses for them doesn't make them feel all warm and fuzzy inside and wanting to become our friends... it encourages them to ramp up their efforts.