(V): "where did you learn to think this??"

I don't understand your question. Are you asking where did I learn this (like from a book) or are you asking me how did I come to think of this?

At first I thought you were asking where did I learn to think. I can't really say where I learned to think, or when... it was an ongoing process. It still is.

Joe????

It was an analogy. Or a metaphor, or whatever it's called... I'm not exactly sure what to call it. I'm not talking about just any old Joe, or about your house... the house is you. Joe is Jesus. Inviting Joe into your house means inviting Christ into your life. If you think he is already in your life, then why would you bother to open the door to let him in? Most people would be inclined to believe in the authenticity of the first Joe, and assume the second one to be fake.

Iamon lyme: Both!!

"It was an analogy. Or a metaphor, or whatever it's called."

I know, I was asking if you got it through the interpretation of passages. I've had a similar discussion with some Joe Witnesses recently... Till I pointed out they had forgotten a whole Corinthians!! ;P

"I'll only be conscious for another hour or two... It's late, and so I'll be scooting off to bed before too long."

Wrong type lol.

..Consciousness is the quality or state of being aware of an external object or something within oneself.[1][2] It has been defined as: subjectivity, awareness, sentience, the ability to experience or to feel, wakefulness, having a sense of selfhood, and the executive control system of the mind.[3] Despite the difficulty in definition, many philosophers believe that there is a broadly shared underlying intuition about what consciousness is.[4] As Max Velmans and Susan Schneider wrote in The Blackwell Companion to Consciousness: "Anything that we are aware of at a given moment forms part of our consciousness, making conscious experience at once the most familiar and most mysterious aspect of our lives."

(V): "I was asking if you got it through the interpretation of passages."

I got it through the 'interpretation' of one passage. You know, the one where Jesus says he stands at the door, and if anyone hears his voice etc etc etc. It's kind of hard to misinterpret that one, wouldn't you say? What do you think it means? Also, you said "passages" (I interpret that to mean more than one) so what other passages do you have in mind, and how do you interpret them?


I assume you are asking me where did I learn about mysticism. My first encounter with mysticism is experience with it. When I started believing in God I went to various churches and meeting places. I wasn't aware of how many different denominations and cults there were claiming to be Christ centered, or included Christ in their philosophy. One time I talked to someone who started off claiming to have an IQ of 170. That should have been my first clue that something wasn't right with him. He told me the Bible was one of five books (representing five major religions) he reads, because they all (collectively) represented what he believed. I told Mr IQ of 170 it didn't make sense for him to include the Bible in that group, and explained why. And all he needed to do to see if this was true or not was to read what his Bible says about it. Mr IQ of 170 didn't like that, not one bit... because I was right. My average bowling score at that time was well over 200, so take THAT Mr IQ of 170!

Anyway, I did encounter some mysticism along the way, and wasn't fooled by that either. Most of it appeals to "religious" emotions and less to rational thought. That's how I saw it. The answers to my questions weren't really answers, they were mostly word pictures that started and ended with the same 'answer'. I was expected to find the meaning of all that somewhere in the haze conjured up for me to look at.

My search was for a comprehensible God, not for a religious feeling or some hazy philosophy that can't stand up to scrutiny.

I may not have an IQ of 170, but I wasn't interested in trying to make sense of nonsense through the sheer power of me little intellect. Very smart people can devise very smart looking ideas, but I'm interested in something more than indulging in an intellectual exercise... I don't need a bigger brain so I can be kept busy with bigger ideas.

Iamon lyme: The High IQ'ers .... run. Old saying.... being good at particle physics doesn't make you a good picker of horses at the races.

.... I think there is where you have me confused.

For a start I don't think... seriously, my missus can confirm that!!

.. as for the comprehension... you think your the only one?

... haven't I said thinking is a bad habit.

Me I learnt how to stop and accept what I couldn't comprehend. Some good phrases like .... happens, grow roses.

(V): "Old saying.... being good at particle physics doesn't make you a good picker of horses at the races."

The secret to picking horses is you pick the horse that looks like it can run the fastest.

".... I think there is where you have me confused."

Because... ?

"For a start I don't think... seriously, my missus can confirm that!!"

So that means you only think you are confused... but if you don't think, you couldn't have arrived at your first premise of thinking you are confused because...
Ahhhh, crap, now I'm confused!!

".. as for the comprehension... you think your the only one?"

The only one what? Are you trying to confuse me?

"... haven't I said thinking is a bad habit."

At the risk of overthinking this, here are some possible answers...

1) So is smoking, but I've had no luck in giving that up either.
2) I'll have to think about that before I can answer.
3) I can't hear anything you've said, but most of time I can decipher what you write.
4) Why, did you forget you said that?

"Me I learnt how to stop and accept what I couldn't comprehend. Some good phrases like .... happens, grow roses."

Does this mean you do NOT accept what I've been saying, because you DO comprehend it?

"....happens, grow roses"

This leads us into examining another philosophical question: Does the Animal kingdom only exist to serve as food processors for the Plant kingdom?

"The High IQ'ers .... run."

That's right, just you try to run away, you little buggers... 'cause I'm a coming for ya!! You can hide, but you can't run!

Iamon lyme: Of your previous experience. Now I know I'm into aspects of Christianity and Judaism that you might think... funny. Yet I've studied them for good reason. Much of what we have today as modern Christianity has no bearing on the original. Philosophy seems to be the intent as such of old Judaism and the teachings of Christ.

"Ahhhh, crap, now I'm confused!!"

Aye.. I was, so I learnt how to stop thinking when it comes to matters of spirituality and further into trying to have a comprehension of what God is and his (to quote Good Omens) "his ineffable plan"

The story of Genesis confirms this from a philosophical point of view... "tree of knowledge" why? Why is there good and evil, why do we perceive those items as such, what causes them... I don't see it in context of some outside demon or DeViL... but as manifestations of problems that humans have that causes them to be ... '''evil'''. Bad genes, bad people, bad nutrition, or just a loose wire in the brain. But we can change the way we think because of free will.

.... The likes of some TV pastor saying the DeViL made him sleep with prostitutes for me is total denial of personal responsibility.

"The only one what? Are you trying to confuse me?"

No. Just that at some extent it is a good idea to accept what you can't understand or comprehend while comprehending it's ok, which takes practice.

"Does this mean you do NOT accept what I've been saying, because you DO comprehend it?"

No.

"This leads us into examining another philosophical question: Does the Animal kingdom only exist to serve as food processors for the Plant kingdom?"

No.. it's symbiotic from a biology perspective.

(V): "Aye.. I was [confused], so I learnt how to stop thinking when it comes to matters of spirituality and further into trying to have a comprehension of what God is and his (to quote Good Omens) "his ineffable plan"

"The story of Genesis confirms this from a philosophical point of view... "tree of knowledge" why?"


Okay, first of all the tree of the knowledge of good and evil wasn't about whether we may or may not have access to ANY knowledge. The prohibition was specific to a knowledge of good and evil. In other words, the prohibition against gaining this knowledge wasn't a prohibition against all other forms of knowledge.

There is nothing there to suggest we shouldn't think or wonder about things, or pursue something like technological knowledge. Obviously (there's that word again) I'm being very literal minded when I look at this, and I could be wrong... I'm assuming things like thinking and wondering and pursuing other knowledge would be okay, because no other prohibitions were stated.

So to your question, why the tree of knowledge? First of all, it wasn't "the tree of knowledge". It was the tree of knowledge OF good and evil. But even so, it begs the question why did God put us in the position of having to choose between what he said and what someone else was saying? Maybe it's because he created us for a specific purpose.

Iamon lyme: Also, a tree of knowledge of good and evil infers evil already existed, otherwise there wouldn't have been a choice to be made... and there would have been no tempter to confuse us.

Blaming God for creating evil doesn't make sense, because when he created everything there was no evil. Blaming God for the existence of evil is the same as blaming him for the problems it causes for us, but we can't blame Him because we had a choice. We can't choose if we don't have free will... so if it's the fault of anything, it would have to be our own free will. We didn't have to sign up for this problem, I know I didn't, but I'm stuck with the decision Adam and Eve made. And blaming them doesn't make sense, because I don't think I could have passed that test either.... because for me to know that I shouldn't be messing around with evil presupposes a knowledge of evil.

You can't know it's wrong until you know it's wrong. All we had to go on before we "knew" it was wrong was God telling us not to do it, and what would happen if we do. So why give us a test we are doomed to fail, because a tempter is there who knows how to confuse us?

I can't say I know why, but I don't think Gods purpose for us was to forever remain ignorant, and live forever running naked through a garden. I don't have a problem with that, because at my age it's not appropriate for me to be running through mommy and daddys garden naked like a two year old. It doesn't make sense for me to believe His plan is for us to simply go full circle, and back to all of us walking naked through a garden again. I think he has a different plan for us.

Iamon lyme: I understand the difference, I cut "of good and evil" just to save me fingers. :P

"You can't know it's wrong until you know it's wrong. All we had to go on before we "knew" it was wrong was God telling us not to do it, and what would happen if we do."

But then free will is excluded. Blind following orders is not as it were 'being' a reflection of the image of God. Do you see the LORD taking orders (and I mean that in the old Jewish way of two contexts intertwined, Noble and God) .... ....

"But even so, it begs the question why did God put us in the position of having to choose between what he said and what someone else was saying? Maybe it's because he created us for a specific purpose."

To enjoy a good life?

"Blaming God for creating evil doesn't make sense, because when he created everything there was no evil. Blaming God for the existence of evil is the same as blaming him for the problems it causes for us, but we can't blame Him because we had a choice."

Now, that depends on what you call evil. If all life is generated from God, then even the nasty parasites, bugs and diseases all come from him. The story of Moses seems to confirm this point, as God is blamed for the ten plagues.

"but I don't think Gods purpose for us was to forever remain ignorant, and live forever running naked through a garden."

Clothes are handy as an environmental factor. Yet was that the first judgement by man, the division of what came from one?

(V): "But then free will is excluded. Blind following orders is not as it were 'being' a reflection of the image of God."

Why would He tell us not to do something, and what would happen if we did, if there was no free will? If free will was excluded, if we had no free will or potential for exercising free will, then there would have been no reason for Him to present us with a choice.

So no, free will is not excluded because it can't be excluded... it's conditional to making decisions and choosing one thing over another.

It's not blind following of orders either way, because whether or not free will was present before the choice is irrelevant. It either started to exist at the moment we made a choice, or it was always there but didn't manifest itself until the choice was made. So either way, we can't say choosing did not involve free will.

(Actually, you CAN say that, because free will allows you to say anything you want to say.)

Free will is conditional to choosing... if we didn't have free will, we would have no choice but to obey Gods rules for us. Nobody talks about inanimate matter blindly following Gods orders... because inanimate matter does not have a choice.

Iamon lyme: I need to correct myself again. God did not present us with this choice. He didn't say choose between this and that. The choice (doing something else) was presented by someone else.

So, who was this someone else.

Everything was fine and dandy with creation until 'something' (something that did have, or had the potential to have, free will) in it thought of elevating himself into a higher position. Evil did not begin with God, it began with something in his creation that could exercise free will.

God COULD have created everything with nothing in it having free will, but then we wouldn't be here talking about it. There would be no discussion about this. Everything, including us, would be blindly following Gods orders.

So what do you think? Did God make a mistake? Is free will the culprit... is it the fly in His ointment?

Iamon lyme: I mean choice in the sense of before we could rationalise, see the difference rather than just reacting unconsciously.

"The effects of evil aren't limited to us, even though we are responsible for letting it in."

To a certain point depending on age.

" Natural selection didn't sin, we did. But if you open a door and let smoke from a pulp mill in, you won't be the only one (or only thing) affected by it... the smoke will get on and into anything it comes in contact with."

The ripple effect... yes. But as the smoke getting into everything.... that is where free will really comes alive. The ability to step back and be as it were an unmoved mover (it's an old Greek term for the essence of being.. ie God)

"If you assume evil bugs were here before the problem began, it's the same as assuming nature cannot change. Nature can (and does) change."

Our genetic structure proves bugs were around, some helped to form of immune system and helped us to evolve... and yes nature does change. Dinosaurs are alive no as birds are they not!! ;P

(V): "I mean choice in the sense of before we could rationalise, see the difference rather than just reacting unconsciously."

I'm talking specifically about what it says in the book of Genesis. What happened wasn't because of an unconscious reaction, it was because of rationalisation. Eve told the serpent it was forbidden fruit, and what would happen if they took and ate of it. So they knew what God had told them and what it meant, and it never occurred to them God might be lying about it until someone came along with rationalisations. That's how liers justify what they do. They "rationalise"... they find reasons to believe what they want to believe. Or what they want you to believe, same difference.

Iamon lyme: "I mean choice in the sense of before we could rationalise, see the difference..."


Obviously (or not) we wouldn't have a made a choice because we couldn't have made a choice before there was a choice.

And if after creating everything, when God looked at it and said it was good, why assume that to mean evil was already there? There is no clear timeline to place exactly when satan became corrupt, except that it must have happened before his encounter with man. So according to the story, evil came into existence between the time God created everything and the serpents first ecounter with man.

So, there ARE some things we can know about the creation story, but if you ignore the internal consistency of the story, then you should have no problem finding contradictions and inconsistencies.

For instance, how could Cain have married someone before there were women? I guess I would have to assume everyone lived for a very long time, enough time for there to be enough people (a large enough population) to choose from. But I don't have to assume, because according to the story everyone did have very long lifespans. Okay then, so if he did get married, they must have been closely related, and that's just wrong! Well, you could expand on that by realising everyone today comes from the same root family, so if you hook up with anyone it's just plain wrong!

Or how about getting all those animals into Noahs boat? How could all the different animals in the world (today) have fit into that boat? That's impossible, because it would mean nature had some mechanism, like natural selection, that could take a small sampling containing enough DNA to account for all of the animals living in the world today.

So yeah, there's all sorts of contradictions and inconsistencies and impossibilities... if that's what you WANT to see.

(V): "Now, that depends on what you call evil. If all life is generated from God, then even the nasty parasites, bugs and diseases all come from him. The story of Moses seems to confirm this point, as God is blamed for the ten plagues."


Nope. You are making the same assumption, that before everything changed evil was already here. The effects of evil aren't limited to us, even though we are responsible for letting it in.

Natural selection is sensitive to changes in environment. It's a blind process. Natural selection didn't sin, we did. But if you open a door and let smoke from a pulp mill in, you won't be the only one (or only thing) affected by it... the smoke will get on and into anything it comes in contact with.

We are not only responsible for what happened to us, we are also responsible for the effect it's had on all of nature. If you assume evil bugs were here before the problem began, it's the same as assuming nature cannot change. Nature can (and does) change.

(V): "Clothes are handy as an environmental factor."

They are now. This is no longer a "clothes optional" world, and for reasons other than modesty. But that hasn't always been the case, so I'm assuming the question that follows is which came first... the clothes, or the environmental changes.

"Yet was that the first judgement by man, the division of what came from one?"

Whether you agree with evolution or creation, no one is saying that people always wore clothes. But even with the evironment changing, people could have settled only into regions where wearing clothes wouldn't have been necessary. Somewhere along the line, wearing clothes seemed to be the right thing to do... but if not for strictly environmental reasons, then why?

(V): "It's a matter of conciousness, isn't it."

I don't know. Is it?

I'll only be conscious for another hour or two... It's late, and so I'll be scooting off to bed before too long.