Artful Dodger: No.. I'm saying you just want to argue the point and I'm happy knowing I am right.

Artful Dodger: That you have a problem with English language use is your problem. Learn yourself.. I know I am right as anybody here in the UK will tell you whether Liberal/Conservative or Jedi Knight!!

Artful Dodger: When talking about someone in the room (or a poster here) "she" is considered rude and bad manners, the same rule does not apply when discussing someone as a topic.

Now you can twist that all you like, but it ain't gonna change 100's of years of English language use and the rules thereof.

rod03801: It is considered bad manners as in talking about someone who is there as if they are not there. It's considered a sign of anger or hate towards the person and just an attempt to disguise it.

rod03801: Yes.. I was not arguing that

I was just saying the comparison data is very vague in relation to time periods and votes missed.

Gosh.. is that to hard to understand, or is it just me 'A' level statistics training.

N' yes everyone misses votes, etc. Sometimes in the UK it's even prearranged, ie no/yes voters paired off.

rod03801: Guees I just read more and did some math on the dates.

ie Bachmann 4 years and 50 votes missed.... Obama 2 months and a number of votes in just that 2 month period missed.

It's Simple.. maybe it's just me from when I did Statistics and the matter of comparing 2 different time periods. As such the comparison is too dodgy to make any real sense comparing wise.

If the time period on Obama's missed votes was a year or longer then you'd get a fair and informative comparison.

rod03801: Can we also take into consideration that the article regarding Bachmann was for a period covering 4 YEARS, and the period in the article covering Obama was just 2 MONTHS.

Bachmann would seem to be a symptomatic vote skipper looking for votes and Obama's record a blip..N' as your article says...

"...Most of the votes Obama missed were for amendments to spending bills, when his vote would not have decided the outcome..."

Let's hope that the stories Anders Behren Breivik was not working with others as he has now said. All these years after 9/11 everybody has been focusing on Muslim terrorists, yet forgetting about the older terrorist groups. Nationalists using Islam as a recruitment card for various right wing neo nazi and ultra conservative hate groups just spouting their version of hate that they complain the Muslim hate groups might get better at than them.

We've had terrorism in Europe since the end of WWII.

Iamon lyme: We are all ignorant. It's a matter of a finite brain divided by infinite knowledge... In the end we all have something we no no-thing about. Thought control does not mean con job. Some people have to persuade others they are right just to be right, ie a matter of insecurity over beliefs like we have with some religious sects that say 'the word of God/Allah (whatever the name) cannot be questioned.

"Being educated and informed is meaningless if all you are dealing with is raw facts and information.."

No.. there are fields of study such as statistics that aid in dealing with such. How they can be manipulated, that extreme figures tend to be 'blips', and a feel for bull when someone says it means "X" when more factors are implicit that makes "X" untrue, part true or "XYZ"

Iamon lyme: Limits based on what? Is a super computer needed to calculate and work out who's money goes where and where it can't?

"No one can manipulate your thoughts unless you allow it."

Are you sure about that, I see magicians doing it all the time to get you believe it's 'magic'. And quite frankly alot of people don't even get taught that they think.

Eg.. I hear alot of "real conservative" being said amongst other key words (eg Liberal, socialist) that seem to be embedded in certain board members here language. They mean.... nothing. Undefined concepts that rely on long time propaganda to cause reactions learned from others.

..sometimes these reactions can have been planted at a young age and through punishment and other means made unquestionable. Certain bAd memories insulated for the protection of the mind can cause unconscious memories.

Any good psychologist will tell you this. Imho anyone who says otherwise needs to rethink or see one.

Vince Cable has attacked leading US Republican politicians for holding up a deal to reduce US government debt.

Speaking on the BBC's Andrew Marr Show, the business secretary called them "a few right-wing nutters in the American Congress". Unless a deal on Capitol Hill is agreed before 2 August, the US Treasury could run out of money to pay its bills.
.........Mr Cable said it presented a bigger risk to the global markets than the continuing debt woes in the eurozone.


President Barack Obama wants to cut US debts by both reducing government spending and raising taxes. Republicans in Congress are strongly opposed to the tax rises.

Mr Geithner told CNN: "It's unthinkable that this country will not meet its obligations on time.
"It's just unthinkable we'd ever do that. It's not going to happen." Yet he added that a Republican proposal to first raise the debt limit and then negotiate the spending cuts was "irresponsible" and would not be agreed by Democrats.

***** We in the UK are all paying an extra 2.5% in VAT.. what's wrong with the Republicans?? Worried about job cuts after public service..... mmmmmm **************

Mr Cable also welcomed the agreement of eurozone leaders to grant Greece a second financial bail-out, but says more still needed to be done. The business secretary said: "It hasn't solved the big problems, but it was a big step forward."

I think SR you should be more worried about how much the US now owes others and the interest on that. The money that is lost through the US rich avoiding taxation by using offshore accounts. The money spent on a military that does seem now to be 'the' American economy.

ScarletRose: The US did not just get back payments in cash, some was in durable goods, ships and equipment. The UK paid you guys back and it seems other countries did, or in some way discounted costs on exports by significant percentages.. upto 90%.

More loss to all countries were the third world loans. But they caused so much damage to the countries who were loaned to that I think most were written off. I think the loans were to give some leverage to let western companies supply the new countries therefore developing foreign markets.

he suspect is reported by local media to have had links with right-wing extremists. Police named him as Anders Behring Breivik. His Oslo apartment was searched overnight.

The BBC's Richard Galpin, near the island, says that Norway has had problems with neo-Nazi groups in the past but the assumption was that such groups had been largely eliminated and did not pose a significant threat.

Police say they are investigating whether the attacks were the work of one man or whether he had help.

"At Utoeya, the water is still being searched for more victims," deputy police chief Roger Andresen told reporters.

"We have no more information than... what has been found on [his] own websites, which is that it goes towards the right and that it is, so to speak, Christian fundamentalist."

"He asked people to gather round and then he started shooting, so these young people fled into the bushes and woods and some even swam off the island to get to safety."

One 15-year-old eyewitness described how she saw what she thought was a police officer open fire.

"He first shot people on the island. Afterward he started shooting people in the water," youth camp delegate Elise told AP.

Mr Stoltenberg had been due to visit the camp on Saturday. Foreign Minister Jonas Gahr Store, who visited the camp on Thursday, praised those who were attending.

"The country has no finer youth than young people who go for a summer camp doing politics, doing discussions, doing training, doing football, and then they experience this absolutely horrendous act of violence," he said.

****** Right Wing Terrorist kills at least 80 in attack on an island youth camp hours after bombing the capital of Norway.

Norway has had a problem with extreme neo/nazi & extreme conservative Christian groups for decades.

From what I'm reading the USA .......... OWES the UK $350 million.. We loaned it to you.

Tuesday: True... But luckily the plane and artillery were not available, nor a true machine gun as was used in WWII. The land grabbers and their government lapdogs would undoubtedly made use of such.

Iamon lyme: I see Christians sending $ in for a place in heaven. This, is called security by some who believe in a 'gothic' heaven and hell.

"Not so meaningless"

That's twisting, one man's freedom, security and idea of prosperity is relative. You guys in America feel you need to own a gun.. I can understand that, but that can turn into insecurity and a cage where a person feels they need a small arsenal to protect them from "big bad wolf" government.

"people who are willing (not coerced) to purchase."

Oh please.. Businesses are quite adept at manipulating concious and unconscious thought processes.. Both the God and the Little DeViL within. They did want to use subliminals at one time.. banned.

"Are these the 'greedy' people you are talking to"

Bankers, Health companies, Purity makers and those exploiting Christians... Including the 'righteous' conservative preachers who always seem to have alot of bling!! The car manufacturers who asked a "willing" Nixon to delay the law on compulsory seatbelts so they could make a few more bucks at the expense of people dying in American made cars unnecessarily.

"Government exists on money they take from people.."

Yes. Somethings private enterprise just can't be trusted to run things.

"When government becomes so powerful it can take more money than it needs to administer its duty to the people who support it where hard working people have difficulty supporting themselves because of that drain."

Well you guys let the rich get richer and you hard workers pay for their tax cuts. It ain't Joe the plumber who reaps the benefit from tax cuts for the rich.. maybe a few illegal immigrant workers below the radar.. more likely.

.. And yes we get greedy people in government. They are only human. It's funny that we think 'officials' have to be saints but our CEO's can be gangsters.. eg Rupert Murdoch.

Iamon lyme: You mean it can. Just as private industry can cause a recession if there is no government to stop the greedy so and so's abusing the trust the public is told is implicit by the nature of the institution.

Regarding the view of economists.. Some say that when the economy is booming, governments should be scrimping... when the economy is busting the government should be spending to support the economic structure of the country.

Why.. because in the end if a government spends to create jobs the private industry cannot, it will get back a fair proportion in taxes, whilst all those jobbed people and businesses will take their cut.

"it actually takes to insure freedom, security, and prosperity."

These are relative concepts.. meaningless except in general terms, to general to mean anything unless a person describes explicitly their view on what such means.

Eg .. prosperity or part of this year is my tomato plants. 6 varieties... basil and salad growing as well from my freedom to choose to grow them. Security is keeping Slugs and snails away... The mint growing wild distracts them acting as a plant shield...N' smells and tastes great

Tuesday: Aye.. it's not nice history. Cities being bombed, firestorms. We had a TV series years ago based on the efforts of those who disarmed unexploded bombs which was a common event in WWII. People in London basically slept in shelters or the underground during the blitz. Then afterwards all the various nationalist groups seeking Identity and recognition led to decades of terrorist bombings throughout Europe.

I don't think many in America quite understand how bloody war is in this day and age. N' why so many joined the likes of the CND when boys starting showing off their new toy nuclear bombs. As a civilian population you guys have not experienced war except for those who have emigrated from countries hit by full scale war.

Tuesday: Some memories when you go back into them you relive them, including the feelings and emotion of being that young age. The inaccurate bombing techniques required 1000's of bombs to be dropped in one raid. Those times were really nasty for the civilian populations in the UK and Europe regarding the bombing.

Tuesday: It's not a time to want to remember... I don't think you guys in America quite understand what the war was like in some respects. Your military saw it, but you as citizens did not live it.

Artful Dodger: So I see it is with you.. is this a competition anyone can join in?

.. Like we have history?

.... as in we have better education?

Birmingham Business Park is a business park operated by Goodman, an Australian property group, situated in the borough of Solihull, West Midlands of England, about 9 miles east of Birmingham city centre.

Current residents of the business park include Orange, Beiersdorf, Hewlett Packard and Fujitsu.[1]

The park lies close to the depressed district of Chelmsley Wood, part of a 'regeneration zone'. According to Richard Cutler, Goodman's director of strategy, 78 per cent of workers at the park are not residents of the zone.[2]
[edit] See also

Goodman UK

Artful Dodger: Pure Conservative... please, such policies have been used by Conservative and Labour councils here for years regarding the state paying for companies to hire. IE the local government is subsidising business.

.. But.. when it came to saving the car industries it was a bad thing?

I see contradiction here!!

OMG.. you guys on the right think economic policies are overcome, changed, their effects dissolved in just a few years.



Please.. you are still feeling the effects of policies made decades ago, but as such policies were made by Republican loons I guess it's blinkers time.

Artful Dodger: Even you have admitted there is a strong influence through the lobbying system.

Guess what.... it's there whoever is in power!!

To make out Republicans don't take bribes or reward friends is pure absolute drivel.

According to various polls the worst President ever is Warren G. Harding (republican)

Why..

"President Harding rewarded friends and political contributors, referred to as the Ohio Gang, with financially powerful positions. Scandals and corruption eventually pervaded his administration; one of his own cabinet and several of his appointees were eventually tried, convicted, and sent to prison for bribery or defrauding the federal government."

Übergeek 바둑이: Which (as one person here in the UK says) just leaves two sides squabbling like school kids in a playground. If both sides refuse to work with each other then for all accounts, it leaves America in a state of civil war.

A multiple murderer who went on the rampage after the 9/11 attacks, killing two people he thought were Arabs, has been executed in the US state of Texas.

Mark Stroman, 41, died by lethal injection despite last-minute representations by his lawyer at the US Supreme Court.

In his final weeks Stroman's plea for clemency was backed by Rais Bhuiyan, who was shot but survived. Mr Bhuiyan had said that killing Stroman was "not the solution".... ....Speaking to the BBC before Stroman's execution, Mr Bhuiyan, 37, said Stroman was guilty of "hate crime", but warned that his death would not achieve anything.

"His execution will not eradicate hate crimes from this world. We will just simply lose another human life," Mr Bhuiyan said.

...Stroman admitted the killings, saying he was motivated by anger at the 9/11 attacks and wanted to take revenge on Muslims - or people who resembled Muslims.

"I had some poor upbringing and I grabbed a hold of some ideas which was ignorance, you know, and hate is pure ignorance. I no longer want to be like hate, I want to be like me," he told the BBC.

Übergeek 바둑이: In other words a dishonourable discharge by all accounts!!

Rep. Allen West is a bit of a Drama Queen. The speech Debbie Wasserman Schultz made after he left was not that bad.. Just showed up that he cared more about millionaires then actual voters and them getting Medicare.

....... He must be looking for a good gravy train job after office.. Maybe with News Corp or something.

Paddy Ashdown.. His Lawyer was approached to confirm whether a document that was "stolen" from his office was real. The burglary was so good that it was not noticed there was one until asked about the documents validity.. seeing as just a small amount of cash and one document went missing.

Paddy's Affair came to light just before a General Election where he and Labour posed a great threat to Maggie.

How convenient for Maggie.. She and the Conservatives must have shown alot of respect... well they did loosen the bank regs!!

Fox... Fair and Balanced.. except when it interupts Murdoch's and any other organisation who has paid respect to the God Father of Propoganda.

Gee.. and who didn't know for years the UK family was of the same guild.

... Not me

Btw.. News Corp is screwed in the USA.

Under certain laws (Foreign Corrupt Practices Act) it's illegal for any American company to bribe overseas officials.

It has emerged that for support Maggie Thatcher and the Conservative government back then let Murdoch set up BskyB ignoring all concerns just so they'd get the Murdoch's papers supporting her in the elections.

Golly.

Tuesday: Right.. the Right by who's definition. By US standards our right is left or middle.. so it gets a little confusing as one definition seems impossible.

Tuesday: The right.. or as it seems to be 'an extension of News Corp?'

Maybe if the Australian politicians hadn't 'danced with the devil' back in the days before Murdoch went international and changed his citizenship to buy America... Things might be different. But I see he's still getting in trouble in Australia for fraud re the News Corp-owned Melbourne Storm.

Now unless it's approved by News Corp things just ain't conservative enough!!

Rebekah Brooks has been arrested by police investigating allegations of phone hacking by the News of the World and allegations that police officers were bribed to leak sensitive information.

The Metropolitan police said a 43-year-old woman was arrested at noon on Sunday, by appointment at a London police station.

Brooks, 43, resigned on Friday as News International's chief executive. She is a former News of the World editor and was close to Rupert Murdoch and the prime minister, David Cameron.

Brooks was due to give evidence before MPs on the culture select committee on Tuesday.

An arrest by appointment on a Sunday by police is unusual.

In a statement the Met said: "The MPS [Metropolitan police service] has this afternoon, Sunday 17 July, arrested a female in connection with allegations of corruption and phone hacking.

"At approximately 12.00 a 43-year-old woman was arrested by appointment at a London police station by officers from Operation Weeting [phone hacking investigation] together with officers from Operation Elveden [bribing of police officers investigation]. She is currently in custody.

"She was arrested on suspicion of conspiring to intercept communications, contrary to Section1(1) Criminal Law Act 1977 and on suspicion of corruption allegations contrary to Section 1 of the Prevention of Corruption Act 1906.

"The Operation Weeting team is conducting the new investigation into phone hacking.

"Operation Elveden is the investigation into allegations of inappropriate payments to police. This investigation is being supervised by the Independent Police Complaints Commission.

From what I read you need to take in ear plugs as they seem to trying to drum through sound into peoples head that they are telling it all.

***** warning this film can be bad for your hearing ... ... take precautions ******

Tuesday: Selective memory!! God bless Big Brother and the ability to rewrite history

Tuesday: what a surprise... not!!

The Scattering was a major historical event that occurred in the chaotic period following the death of Leto Atreides II, the God-Emperor. Leto's death saw the eventual breakdown of his empire, severe famine on many worlds, and the introduction of Ixian no-ships. It was all part of The Golden Path, as put forward by Leto, which was triggered by a perceived need to diversify the human race and allow it to evolve.
OriginEdit Origin sectionEdit

Leto II's prescience allowed him to see into both the past and the future, and he believed that ten thousand years of rule by the Faufreluches had allowed the human race to become stagnant, and that drastic action on Leto's part was needed in order for the human race to survive.

As a result of this philosophy, during the reign of Leto II humanity was predominantly planet bound and ruled by an iron fist for more than 3500 years. This was in contrast to the relative freedom of expression and movement people enjoyed to a limited degree under the Faufreluches, the limits being predominantly the inherent control of feudal rule and the Spacing Guild monopoly on space travel. Indeed, Leto II exerted a level of control that was unprecedented in the Imperium, including power over the Guild and space travel, a feat that previous Emperors had been unable to accomplish. Upon Leto's death, the stalwart and long-established order of the Imperium disintegrated, as did control over freedoms and movement, and as a result, humanity rediscovered independence and nobilities on an unprecedented scale. This paved the way for humanity to "scatter" across the universe into the unknown and further evolution of the human race.

http://dune.wikia.com/wiki/Scattering

........"The worst thing of all is to see politicians coming out playing the "open government" and "transparency" game. I will believe that BS on the day when intelligence agencies and the police stop spying on people."

When we live in Utopia, I'd agree.. but then it wouldn't be necessary in order to keep track of the 'bad guys'.

..........."Politicians have known for decades about what was going on. They feign ignorance only to protect their own hides."

Since Thatcher the way of UK politics changed with the use by Maggie of a PR firm to change the image of the Conservative party & leader. An old reporter said there was a fallout years ago when the press stopped being invited to the parties.

... A free drink here and there kept the relationship sweet.

Now an American congressman has stated that the US authorities need to see if any American based Murdoch owned media company has been involved in hacking or blagging!!

NEWS CORP WITHDRAWS BID FOR BSkyB....

"News Corp deputy chairman Chase Carey said the bid had become "too difficult to progress in this climate"."

.... basically News Corp knew that they would be blocked by Parliament.

"..........Mr Cameron said those who sanctioned wrongdoing should have no further role in running a media company in the UK.

He said Lord Justice Leveson, assisted by a panel of senior independent figures, would make recommendations for a better way of regulating the press which "supports their freedom, plurality and independence from government but which also demands the highest ethical and professional standards".

He will also make recommendations about the future conduct of relations between politicians and the press.

Mr Cameron told MPs he would require all ministers and civil servants to record meetings with senior editors and media executives to help make the UK government "one of the most open in the world"."

From the Home Affairs Select Committee today....

Mr Hayman later went on to become a columnist with the News International title The Times but rejected suggestions that he was in the newspaper group's "back pocket".

He told the committee: "Even if I had that motive or other motives that have been suggested, I had no ability to change the direction of that at all."

Mr Hayman also confirmed he had private dinners with representatives of the News of the World during the phone hacking inquiry, but said they had always been "businesslike" and were in the presence of the Met's head of communications.

Former Met assistant commissioner, now working for News International

Obama Zombie??? What about all the Zombies acting like the cold war still exists..

What about all the hate groups that have started up since Obama got into office. Based on he got into office.

Undead??

The last edition of the News of the World was published on Sunday, with a full-page apology for hacking mobile phones of hundreds of people, including Milly Dowler.

On Thursday, News International chairman James Murdoch, son of Rupert, announced the paper would be closing down in the wake of the latest revelations and in its final editorial the paper said: "Quite simply, we lost our way".

News International said James Murdoch had no knowledge of the e-mails that Harbottle & Lewis were asked to review.

The NoW doubled Sunday's print run to five million, with money from the sales being donated to four charities.

The National Federation of Retail Newsagents said sales figures from its members suggested an average increase in sales at midday of more than 30% compared with the total sales from last Sunday.

Meanwhile, Labour leader Ed Miliband said he would force a Commons vote to delay News Corporation's proposed takeover of the whole of BSkyB, until the investigation into the NoW was completed.

Former Deputy Assistant Commissioner of the Met Police Brian Paddick is among those who will meet political leaders about the hacking this week. He said he did not find the revelations about police payments that surprising.

"Newspapers go to extraordinary lengths to protect their informants, whether they are police officers or not.

"So it shouldn't be any surprise that although they had evidence police officers were being paid for information, that they actually filed that information away four years ago, and it is only because of the pressure over the phone hacking they've actually produced this evidence so that the police can investigate."

Him [...] Cameron must have known - that's the bigger scandal. He had to jump into bed with Murdoch as everyone had, starting with Thatcher in the Seventies . . . Tony Blair . . . [tape is hard to hear here] Maggie openly courted Murdoch, saying, you know, "Please support me." So when Cameron, when it came his turn to go to Murdoch via Rebekah Wade . . . Cameron went horse riding regularly with Rebekah. I know, because as well as doorstepping celebrities, I've also doorstepped my ex-boss by hiding in the bushes, waiting for her to come past with Cameron on a horse . . . before the election to show that - you know - Murdoch was backing Cameron.

And the Republicans and Tea party.....

Him So I asked a copper to get his hands on the phone files, but because it's only a caution it's not there any more. So that's the tip . . . it's a policeman ringing up a tabloid reporter and asking him for ten grand because this girl had been cautioned right at the start of his career. And then I ask another policemen to go and check the records . . . So that's happening regularly. So the police don't particularly want to investigate.
Me But do you think they're going to have to now?
Him I mean - 20 per cent of the Met has taken backhanders from tabloid hacks. So why would they want to open up that can of worms? . . . And what's wrong with that, anyway? It doesn't hurt anyone particularly. I mean, it could hurt someone's career - but isn't that the dance with the devil you have to play?
Me Well, I suppose the fact that they're dragging their feet while investigating a mass of phone-hacking - which is a crime - some people would think is a bit depressing about the police.
Him But then - should it be a crime? I mean, scanning never used to be a crime. Why should it be? You're transmitting your thoughts and your voice over the airwaves. How can you not expect someone to just stick up an aerial and listen in?
Me So if someone was on a landline and you had a way of tapping in . . .
Him Much harder to do.
Me But if you could, would you think that was illegal? Do you think that should be illegal?
Him I'd have to say quite possibly, yeah. I'd say that should be illegal.
Me But a mobile phone - a digital phone . . . you'd say it'd be all right to tap that?
Him I'm not sure about that. So we went from a point where anyone could listen in to anything. Like you, me, journalists could listen in to corrupt politicians, and this is why we have a reasonably fair society and a not particularly corrupt or criminal prime minister, whereas other countries have Gaddafi. Do you think it's right the only person with a decent digital scanner these days is the government? Whereas 20 years ago we all had a go? Are you comfortable that the only people who can listen in to you now are - is it MI5 or MI6?
Me I'd rather no one listened in, to be honest. And I might not be alone there. You probably wouldn't want people listening to your conversations.
Him I'm not interesting enough for anyone to want to listen in.


From.....

http://www.newstatesman.com/newspapers/2011/04/phone-yeah-cameron-murdoch