Imsoaddicted: Some may live in the "better than the Jones age" but not all. And quite frankly, I feel much (from what I've seen/heard) does not extend from that but from pure frustration of the bullies. Getting attention can give rise to some strange and unfortunate disturbances.

Ferris Bueller: Some states! Here at school there is a country wide ban. It is not acceptable. Also the rules (due to incidents) do extend into the realm of the internet, yet such rules were already there in some respects re the ban on internet stalking and other cyber crimes. Such as spreading hate and 'isms to which several people have found themselves before the beak.

gogul: http://www.icmacentre.ac.uk/soldier/database/

Here you are.

gogul: Only because of international pressure on Swiss banks, as the previous conditions to make a claim were at the least.. scandalous. How could death certificates of those killed in the holocaust be produced??

And shamefully, the Swiss, like the UK turned away many Jews trying to flee to a neutral country (or non-Nazi influenced) to escaped being killed.

History is such a depositary of info!!
Now you can even access complete records dating back to the 100 years war, thanks to the UK government of the time wanting to know where their money was being spent.

gogul: illegal drugs or legal drugs?? Legal drugs are worth more then the illegal sort by I would guess quite a factor. And didn't you know.. much of the business in one class has become home grown.

And what about the Swiss banks and a certain organisations gold from WWII.. To which several lawsuits have been raised against Swiss banks

We have a good memory here also.

gogul: But it's already in place via business deals. Long gone are the days where a country's economy is strictly controlled by those who live there.

Artful Dodger: So.. the site "Accuracy in Media" is against common decency?? Even against stopping discrimination against women!!

And I must say.. The USA expects extradition to it's country and courts and yet this site does not want fairness in cases where USA people have committed crimes in other countries and hence extradition.

Bit of a joke site by all accounts!!

Artful Dodger: If they didn't then they really forgot one great deal of a lot of the dynamic history of Iraq. Seeing as it wasn't that far in the past I find that hard to believe. I feel more they just hoped the old internal wars were forgotten about.

Übergeek 바둑이: I find it hard to believe that the 5% was not accounted for. So much 'watching' by various parties that for them not to know does suggest it was known.. or at least highly known to be unlikely.

If not... then despite various 'sightings' of mobile chemical factories (as was claimed) the intel was very, very poor. Stupendously bad in fact for the amount of effort being made. And since a certain C Rice interview over Saddam... I don't recon it was that bad, seeing as she had to give such a performance.

Czuch: I cannot say that, too much politics involving western nations and Arab states to say that without considerable error elements.

... too many fingers in the pie.. as it were

Czuch: No it isn't.

gogul: History is told by survivors of it, so naturally most history has it's ugliness when it comes to power, politics and the ilk. As for the horizon museum pieces.. no. it's a matter of the Taliban out lasting... they know they are no match for us in the battlefield.

And politics in the middle east involves more than the Israeli/Palestinian problem. Religion, cold war and much separatist division. Those who study history would be wise to remember that before Saddam Iraq was torn by civil war, he gave stability to that country, but power and being used by various factions in their 'best' interest power corrupted him and his regime. Billions of dollars fed into his economy so no-one else would have to dirty their hands with blood.

And to why Saddam didn't want inspectors... because the country's army was so weak that he didn't want the Iranians knowing fearing an invasion. I guess the USA knew that seeing as he was such an easy quick victory. Yet all that man power tied up there is a shame as it limits the efforts in Afghanistan.

Czuch: look again, the western involvement goes upto 1990 there about's, and to vivify your position it would be helpful if you verify your knowledge.

Czuch: You've yet to answer anything except that you have no grounds to imprison those in da' bay

Czuch: If you are that ignorant about the history in that region.. go away for a year and study. I might then stop having to fill in the gaps of what you know.

.... you could have just googled it and therefore knew before you answered!!

Czuch: ...on what grounds. seeing as you have no moral high ground, your answer is no answer.

Czuch: Czuch, if you don't know... just say so. If you need time to look the matter over, just say so.

But constantly not answering questions as you do, just makes me feel you have no answers, do not know what you are talking about.. is this true?

Czuch: Not till you answer all mine...

.. I'll give you a day to catch up

And as for politics...

The Conservative party is criticising the Labour party for not listening to the Army over it's needs in Afghanistan.

Yet as for listening to the Army's requests.. The Conservative party says it's only "extremely likely" to listen.

Whatever happened to commitment??

Czuch: You can't answer!!! And I'm not presuming.. I'm going by history.

And how do you stand by the USA helping Iraq, a known unstable state.. giving them Nuclear tech??

Or are you going to take the government line and deny everything.

Artful Dodger: Hopefully yes. Hopefully it'll end the use of tyrants and the like by other country's, as those who would use 'evil' people will realise that it will end up biting you in the butt later.

eg... Iran is so annoyed with the west due it's people being killed by WMD supplied by the west. Now that mess is haunting the world and will for many years.

This is not 'demonising' but being honest of the results of actions that were flawed and irresponsible.

Czuch: So.... are you saying it's ok for the USA to supply people it knows that are 'bad' with the ability to kill their own people and others more efficiently, and knowing before hand that it does kill it's own people and others and will use WMD material that is supplied to them to that extent... it's ok??

And then change it's mind (probably due to embarrassment) then to moan about feeding them, which is a direct result of previous supplying of WMD materials which leads to the necessity of sanctions.

Are you saying that in all cases of the USA (or any other western country) supporting murders and the ilk, it's ok?

If so.. then you'd have to understand why some nations are angry at the USA (and other western nations) for such actions.. wouldn't you.

While the August 18 NYT article added new details about the extent of US military collaboration with Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein during Iraq's 1980-88 war with Iran, it omitted the most outrageous aspect of the scandal: not only did Ronald Reagan's Washington turn a blind-eye to the Hussein regime's repeated use of chemical weapons against Iranian soldiers and Iraq's Kurdish minority, but the US helped Iraq develop its chemical, biological and nuclear weapons programs.

Immediately prior to the US invasion of Iraq, Saddam Hussein delivered a WMD declarations report to the United Nations in an attempt to avert a U.S. invasion. Do you recall that U.S. officials intercepted the report and removed special sections of it, based on claims of “national security”? Well, it turned out that the removed sections involved the delivery of those WMDs by the United States and other Western countries to Saddam Hussein, information that obviously caused U.S. officials a bit of discomfort on the eve of their invasion.

http://www.fff.org/comment/com0406g.asp

Czuch: The ability to create them. From dear Ronald Raygun. It's in your government records.

Czuch: Is he.. in what way?? That he kills people for you and your hands are not stained in blood? I thought accomplices were still guilty.

Czuch: Who supplied the WMD's that made him a threat?? The USA.. so if the USA had not given him the material .. which he used against the Iranians, yet that was ok.. he wouldn't have needed monitoring.

Isn't that clear????

Czuch: I'm not contradicting anything.. just trying to understand the reasoning.. and yes the time phrase was years... but you do understand the phrase don't you in the context I meant it??

Please explain who missed that Saddam was nasty and how.. this point I find interesting!!

Artful Dodger: ... In Afghanistan... ok.... But there were none in Iraq. Unless this is part of some long term policy to get Iran and other country's in the area.

Is there such a plan?

Czuch: So the war was good for America in what way? A stable middle east, yet by all rights wouldn't you say that the USA had done little or blocked peace attempts in the past? One minute Saddam is a good guy, been given WMD material,. next he's bad.

And if the USA was tired of monitoring him... why create him in the first place!! You knew he was no good yet the USA gave him WMD material!!

why?

Czuch: Yes.. and in saying so I included quantum math. It is part of the model you know And yes.. you said you presume your models work until they don't...

.. So.. we are in agreement that the model is that there is no model. No way to predict accurately events. Builders know this. Even if they have a plan, they always have to include an uncertainty principle for things that they cannot control.

And it would be helpful if you remember what you said, that democracy was the main reason that we went to war in Iraq... or was it WMD's??

But then saying you have no higher moral ground would negate such reasons. And then the question is.... why were you tired of Saddam?

Artful Dodger: Good. Then you'd recognise that your whole argument is based on sand?

Czuch: Yes I do, and such a model includes quantum physics. And if you knew about quantum physics then you'd know nothing is certain at that level.

I also include, 6 dimensional space and 'brains and multi verses... big 'brains!!

GTCharlie: And human bEiNgS have developed the ability to choose and not be bound by animal fear and flight.. Not to act like animals trapped in a corner lashing out.

Czuch: So, we can say the same of USA people that get killed or tortured?

slippery slope.....

Artful Dodger: Only three people.. have you definite proof of that? And what of the other illegal methods of gaining info, which the USA gov and judicial say are illegal to use on their people??

Artful Dodger: Nope.. I answered. And so did Czuch.. and if you agree with Czuch that you needed no moral ground to start using waterboarding, etc then you've dumped your morality full stop.

You cannot have it both ways... only tyrants try that and they fail..

Czuch: So Czuch... you've just blown the reasons you say America started the Iraq war on. Moral high ground.

So we can now say that you finally admit it was an illegal war.

ok????

Übergeek 바둑이: I know. police are prosecuted for over using violence and prosecuted and sent to jail.

If a criminal hurts someone they are sent to jail. I've never heard of someone being above the law.. even God is bound (or so they say) by the laws of physical science as they are bound from the moment of creation when all that is was decided to be.

Now if God has to obey the laws, I can see no exception!!

And it appears that the CIA were no longer considered a trustworthy source of intelligence. A total lack of trust in intelligence!!

So.. that made those high up afraid.. they then used that fear to justify torture. And because a certain amount of programming involving "us and them" was inbred into the American political system it created an ability to say "them".

I thought we were all classed as humans.

And it appears that the CIA were no longer considered a trustworthy source of intelligence. A total lack of trust in intelligence!!

So.. that made those high up afraid.. they then used that fear to justify torture. And because a certain amount of programming involving "us and them" was inbred into the American political system it created an ability to say "them".

I thought we</i> were all classed as humans.

Übergeek 바둑이: Doing it causes suffering, suffering creates hate.

And hate creates pain. So how is it a cure is what I wonder!!

Czuch: Well if your self justified, justify yourself. Others have been capable and have one won the fight without breaking the principles that they are fighting for.

So.. tell me. Why can't America?

You've signed all the conventions, taking part and pursued war criminals and tried them without all this 'torture' business, and then much bigger criminals then you have now for much of the same things that you now justify..

... So when did someone decide the American spirit has become so weak that it needs to behave as it once said was so wrong??

Czuch: And you tell me that your model doesn't fit yet you use it.

It's the old teaspoon problem... what is it?

Czuch: No.. not trickle down... you put a price on the cost of one humans head, it then becomes a standard excuse.

... Now, read your history about tyrants and what they thought... a slippery slope that opens the path to the abyss.

.. And it's this kind of attitude that opens up the problem of moral high ground.

... you ain't got any.

Czuch: You know your intel guys are taught to not give up info. Such training includes waterboarding simulation to make it so they don't give up info. That's how your guys who used it knew how to use it.

Czuch: Models don't work Czuch... they are based on a fixed unmoving world. As you know.. we are in orbit. And being subjective.. the laws of gravity change perspective in as much that time is distorted.

You know your GPS is reliant on constant daily updates to the clocks on the satellites due to the difference in time from living in 1G and zero G.

And as one political commentator said. So much can be dependent on little things, like whether somone is having a bad day or not. And us being humans.. can you predict accurately how someone will react?

Artful Dodger: Nope, I answered. And if you had read up on why waterboarding was used (as I said .. due to a lack of trust in intelligence) you'd have my reply easily from my answers.

And Art.. There are times in your life when you cannot break trust. The Official Secrets Act (OSA) is one of them.. being a lawyer is another case, etc. I made a sincere promise and I intend to keep it!!!

But in respect, that is beside the point.

You want more clue's (I'm gonna make you stretch your grey stuff) ... Pan roams and that's all you get.


And Übergeek 바둑이 got the main point and the point you all seem to miss. It's a slippery slope when you've broken the moral ground you base your activities on.

Artful Dodger: *sigh* Not everyone uses the same methods Art. Not everyone is trusted.. as in this case due to lack of trust in intelligence!!

One thing...

If the rules of the Geneva Convention don't apply to all by certain US 'models' created to deal with a lack in trust of intelligence.... Then who gets to decide what is a correct interpretation of the law needed due to lack of trust in intelligence??

Any answers?

Artful Dodger: That would in part require me to betray a trust.

Such I would consider as equal to breaking the OSA!