Czuch: Well maybe you were looking to hard and missing my answers. I mean I studied economics at school... did you? Is your ed system the same, do you get taught the same history??

Nahhhhhhhh

Czuch: There are expressions and there are labels.

What is a liberal Czuch? Parties vary from country to country and from day to day in the political world.

eg Maggie set up the expenses system that our MP's have been abusing. Labour despite being in power for many years has not sought to reverse such a decision, and now all parties MP's are saying it's bad and they are sorry... but it was within the rules.

Figure it!!

Vikings: I extend from centre to which ever feels right by my own mind, by my conscience.

I see no destruction in that. There is more, but that is difficult to explain as it cannot be explained.

gogul: London and Manchester have pockets where violence can be bad, and the figures for violence are going down thanks to concentrated efforts involving communities, the police and the government.

I use "little people" as a term, not a label. It's in reference to those who just work for a living, yet businesses are reliant on for their success.

Imsoaddicted: How can I, when what they stand for keeps changing from day to day. I think Torchwood's last episode this week says it better then I.. you know... the PM trying to spin the potential loss of 10% of kids in the UK.

Vikings: In 5 words... and you missed it.

I need say no more, your constitution says it.

Artful Dodger: Democracy is a form of government, like kings and lords, etc.... Just now we have elected 'lords' and 'kings' rather then lifetime ones.

It's just crazy that we elect our kings and lords without proportional representation.
Also it's crazy that we let them split ourselves into "us and them", which allows them to control us.

How much money has been wasted over "us and them"? how many WMD's have been created over "us and them"?

Artful Dodger: No... They are not liberal, they are just pre doctrine.

So there.

Bernice: Certain philosophies would disagree with you on that.

I'll say goodnight.. no-one wants to answer to "what happens to the millions of little people"!!

Bernice: Nope.... political systems by their nature don't work. As someone said, democracy is just the best system so far!!

Vikings: I didn't want an apple, I wanted a PC... but with apple is the OS bundled?

No.... we were discussing today the little people.

Artful Dodger: Wrong. I am not liberal. I will not repeat myself again!!

Vikings: It came with the machine, I had no option not to purchase the machine without windows as most do not.

Anyway... the subject was the little people, part of the big businesses. Or the little people, those who invest their life savings in what everyone says is a safe bet. It's not their fault a big business makes a mess of things, so why should all those normal, everyday people loose out? Why should they loose everything they spent a life building??

I've seen no-one here come up with an answer to that, just diversion and changing subjects.

Artful Dodger: And being loose it is never accurate. period.

Vikings: we were talking about government, not judges....

Windows is not IE!! You'll agree 99%+ PC's (I allow for error) are sold with windows installed.. even the cashpoints and shop tills use windows.

Artful Dodger: WE are all God. Everything IS God.

"We all fit into some slot with respect to our political views and with respect to our philosophy of life."

Ohhhhhhh no we don't!!

Artful Dodger: I find categorising people never works. It's like trying to describe God with words.... how do you describe something that IS???

Vikings: I can disagree with policy without saying someone is stealing.

And Gates was stolen from... yet over here we find in respect he's been stealing (to use your phrase) though in broad daylight from consumers!!

And btw... I was talking not about judges, why change the subject?

Czuch: I'm a human being, not a liberal. It would help if you remember that. As I said stereotyping me as a liberal will not work.

Do I have to repeat myself on that??

Czuch: You liberal types...... stereotyping..... read my last post

Czuch: If it was one related business.. but it never is. That point you keep missing.

Czuch: No I'm not. And as for greater heights then ever imagined.....

Sorry, the sci-fi writers imagined it way before it happened, and in retrospect... No country has beaten the power of the former British Empire and is unlikely due to our belief in democracy ever will.

"The lack of hope was obviously not devastating...."

At the time it was. And that devastation despite arguments about policies back then is agreed by all.

Vikings: SOME PEOPLE want them to fail, not everyone. In some businesses (which some people can't see) is the damage that uncontrolled failure can cause. One of the things everyone can agree regarding the great depression was the lack of hope that some people think is acceptable today! That lack of hope (everyone who disagrees about the cause and effect and cure) all agree was devastating.

"without further stealing from the working people of their hard earned money, Bill Gates has already been stolen from"

... Stealing?? Are not our government's elected? Through democracy!! We are not talking expenses here of MP's, but policy.

As for Bill stealing... we all know if we buy a PC we are buying windows, but the EU (government) has outlawed Bill's monopoly, yet you don't want this government and would allow Bill and the likes of Intel to cheat the market and us of 'free competition'??

What do you want?

Czuch: And of Ethel who worked behind the till in the local Branch in 'X'? Or Mrs Jones the cleaner? What about Miss Peabody who works in the cafe reliant on car workers for 75% of it's trade??

You think it's all about big people and forget the little people who big business is reliant on and as such are not at fault for big businesses going under.... they are just working for a living!!

Pink Floyd's Final Cut first track comes to mind.

Czuch: The great depression and the NRA have little relation to current events. The depression back then was affected by the Gold Standard being behind currency evaluation. There was a universal lack of confidence back then, something we don't have now, and that since the great depression we've had systems in place to take care of those directly affected instead of 'soup kitchens'.... Also there is no 'dustbowl'. A lesson in agriculture that will never be repeated.

The NRA is not the same within reasonable comparison, as your current admin's policies have some significant differences which make the recovery program similar but different.

"want the big fishes to starve so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so much....."

Sounds socialist even communist in regard to reasons for communist/socialist states. But such is that such an attitude is against your free market model you idolise. No more Bill Gates, no more multi-internationals ruling the market..... If you think it through then in the long term to prevent re-occurrences then a cap on how much you can earn would have to be set.

.... More government, more interference but possibly (according to the likes of Karl Marx) would make the occurrence of depression/recession cycles (as they are natural to the free market) further apart, which in some respects lead to more unpredictability, leading to less risk taking.....

Businesses and people would just have to be more sensible, less risk taking naturally but at a cost of a less free market and codes of ethics being set which all significant businesses would have to live by.

.... A socialist free market.

Tuesday: That or they've got some kinda of stasis.

Tuesday: Stalin I think had a bigger memorial... I'm not sure about other leaders of Russia, or as it became the USSR.

Übergeek 바둑이: Yes it will, so many small businesses (such as restaurants and related dependant businesses) will fail if the bigger ones fall.

And if the same happens in USA as over here, then banks, etc will pick up and the related Gov's will make a profit in the long term.

Artful Dodger: .... and your economic basis for this is?

Sometimes you have to spend to save.

Artful Dodger: Is he? Then most countries in the western world are in trouble as most are following the same path in some form.

Artful Dodger: Yes... I think everyone agrees with that. That's why this could cause alot of good.... as stated!!

"Lots of people have poor childhoods but that's no excuse to do some of the things MJ did."

It's part of the cycle.. that's what I'm hoping such a big death in terms of publicity will change. Quite frankly if everyone just moans about the death and the hype then that will do no good.

And Bush already bankrupted America. Also he wanted more BiG BROTHER to monitor everything Americans did in the name of homeland security.

So.... everything you are accusing the democrats of doing, the republicans have done already!!

Artful Dodger: It depends on how people use the facts of his life.

gogul: ?? Brake?!?!?!?

..... undo not destroy I feel is a more appropriate phrase.

Tuesday: Yep.

Tuesday: I think quite a few people can see MJ in themselves.

And that you can see, is a change and break from not seeing.

gogul: Why destroy? why not change!!

"I can see that in political processes you usually break down. Why so?"

???????

Tuesday: Or gotten wiser... But reflection was not a widely taught thing back then.

..... Shame.

gogul: And that can be more destructive if done. Such destruction has been likened to taking a sledge hammer to a brick wall surrounded by glass houses.

Brick by brick is a better method.

Tuesday: He sure did. It might have been just an age factor, or that his dad had gotten better at such acts... who knows!!

gogul: Then I suggest you are missing the point. I see no ego, I just see a kid that never got a chance to be a kid.

And being childlike has been said to be one of the most important aspects of ourselves by many people, and many religions and philosophies.

Tuesday: suffered the most... any info on why?

Tuesday: Sexuality has nothing to do with abuse or predatory acts. A heterosexual man or woman is just as likely to commit such acts as someone who is gay. I think the stats (though I'm not 100%) say that heterosexual people are more likely, but if that is due to the difference in numbers of sexual preference I'm not sure.

It's all down to a long cycle and whether you are the 'one in eight', as I'm led to believe that is the likelihood of such a mindset being passed down from one generation of abused->abuser.

gogul: You know some people know they need to solve problems but don't know how.... or put into a state where they think such solving is not possible, or find such a task too daunting.

"Aww" reminds me of attitudes that have kept the cycle of abuse going, people led to believe that what they have been through is an unmentioned subject. It's normal...

It is not.

And if MJ's life leads to even just a small number of adults and children escaping such a vicious cycle then it'll never be a waste.

gogul: Politically.. not really... but as a matter of human interest... no.

We don't want to go back to the old days of abuse being hidden and not talked about.

And it is a politically talked about subject here in the UK, as several cases of abuse have come to light through those who are supposed to monitor at risk children have let down children resulting in deaths. Some people have lost their jobs over certain cases.

Tuesday: If (as I've never seen any proof) Michael J had the skin disease then by all means he had the right to sort out that problem... But he started changing his appearance before the skin disorder became publicly known.

IMO many of his family were affected. Looking at how some of his brothers and sisters talk and look Michael was not the only one to suffer from his fathers wrath. He was just the most evident of the affect of long term abuse.

I'm not dissing him, just being honest in my thoughts.

There have been many cases come to light of long term abuse recently.. especially about one in Austria.... It can devastate a persons emotional growth.

As to him committing homosexual acts with these kids... unknown. But statistically the odds are that he might have had some out of the norm emotional deviations. Yet thanks to the first case being settled out of court, unless someone opens up we will never be quite sure.

Maybe they'll bring back the ol' sheep licking the foot torture method.... makes cats tongues look smooth as silk!!

gogul: It's not dead. They'll just get fined or settle out of court!!

Another record.... Civilization!! New kings, different terminology.

The Murdoch group and the police are in trouble over phone tapping. The Murdoch group for doing it, and the police for not telling anyone they knew.

The News group is saying it is not important. Despite 3 possible cases of phone tapping being settled out of court...

GTCharlie: Then that is a load of rubbish. Mr Jackson (if you listen to one of his interviews) quite honestly admits that the only time he felt safe at home when he was with his brothers. Alone was bad!!!!

Hence his need to have boys around him and his dependence on painkillers. ... pain was a reminder of his dad.

It could happen to anyone, and probably has and will... but with luck, maybe it'll happen less it being in the news and all.