Artful Dodger: I focused on three facts. Historical events, that regardless of opinion HAPPENED!!

(V): What's that to do with the 3 facts you asked me to produce?? Now you are changing the subject!!

Artful Dodger: Nagasaki was not the planned target of the second A bomb.

Over the Cuban missile crises, much secret talking was going on, which resulted in a compromise involving Turkey and what was placed there strategically.

Racial segregation was still widely practised in parts of the USA even in the mid 20th century

Czuch: Czuch.. I was speaking globally, not just the USA. The Cold War was 'fought' by many nations. Nuclear weapons stockpile war, biological weapons "we'd better have them" stockpile war.. Us in the UK still have an island off Scotland that is a no go due to an experiment with Anthrax.

Artful Dodger: You were talking about the USA being dammed either way, it isn't.

And world history, especially over the last 60 years is significant. We got caught in a spiral of fear, mistakes were made. Paranoia ruled.

Fact.... not blame.

Czuch:

Artful Dodger: So when discussing the history of the world, it's ok to state facts and opinions about roles?

Czuch:

gogul: Embarrassing or just facts? Most countries, if not all have some incident in their past.

I mean... our ancestors were not exactly saints when it came to politics and the sword!!

Artful Dodger: what that this is getting back to party politics... or evil is still evil, or the wars... And that America is entirely innocent? Or Americans can't take criticism of an idol of theirs??

Which?

Artful Dodger: It's not a case of blame.... fact is not blame, it's facing the reality of the situation. The aftermath of the invasion of Iraq was not planned, end of. Bad mistake... people are allowed to make mistakes and as such governments are made of people.

Sorry, I try and follow the Eastern style of problem solving and statement.

Western is to blame. you can state a fact without blaming, it's just a fact.

Czuch: Yes, it is a common recruitment call. I believe factions in the USA use this method.... and?

You missed the context of my post Czuch.

Artful Dodger: And when would you say the USA enjoyed full democracy for all it's population? Equal rights for all it's population? And as such.. a united USA???

History records that the UK became a democratic country centuries ago, but after recent events... were we? Or did we just replace a king with politicians?

Artful Dodger: No, Iraq became a calling point as the USA put it's soldiers in a position where they destabilised the region and had no plan for the aftermath of the invasion. They made it so Iraq's borders were weak and anyone can just walk in.. Plus, putting back in authority those who were not to be trusted.. eg.. I wonder how a US soldier feels that the arms he's being fired on with are those supplied by the US to such as the Iraqi police force?

As for the birth of the USA as we know it today.. yes it was the civil war, otherwise your country would be split in two. Independence is just a conception point, as many have found, not the birth.

Artful Dodger: No it doesn't. We are all supposed to be for democracy regardless of the political orientation of the government.

No outside power has the right to interfere with a democratic process within a country, unless called in to make sure (as per UN observers) that the election is fair.

Over the last 50 years or so, the USA and USSR have interfered so much that the world is mixed up, all over power games and a believe that their is no room for the opposite side.

Boys and their playground games!!

Artful Dodger: Easier to deal with for whom? The USA and the thirst for oil, or for the population of those who A, B or C is now been put in power over?

And don't forget civil war can be part of a country's birth, just like yours.

North Korea is a dud, they can't do anything without it being spotted.

I feel more insecure over Israel as they are allowed to do pretty much what they want and no one stops them over their breakage of UN resolutions and that they have not signed the proper nuclear arms treaties.

No-one is denying it is not a complex world, but the reasons behind the decisions of those who say they know best, yet no-one seems to regulate such bodies, except paranoia and fear.

Artful Dodger: So a democratically elected government is more evil then a bunch of right wing dictators?

I thought democracy was the lessor of the "two evils".

My bad!!

Czuch: So why has the USA interfered in so many governments over the years? Including upto the level of arming right ring monsters attempting military take overs, rather then the elected left wing government being in power?

Imsoaddicted: It better not, otherwise I feel a revolution will be at hand.

Artful Dodger: A mess. But I have to say this is based on limited info as we cannot get good reporting from that country due to the restrictions in place. But it feels like a religion backed dictatorship.. Well, I say religion, but realistically it's a perversion of the Islamic faith.

Snoopy: Hopefully they will go for the UKIP instead, but unless they change some of the immigration laws I fear it will be the BNP.

Snoopy: Have you heard about the Iraq Inquiry.. behind closed doors, no under oath, and no power to make people appear.

Such great openness that we are getting

At last.. Our Commons authority has published MP's accounts details....

Just they blacked out so much that it's a joke.

This sure is going to restore the UK people confidence in our democracy.... NOT!!

Czuch: ... US companies 'rebuilding' Iraq ripping of the USA government... blah blah blah.. Iraqi police giving weapons to enemy insurgents.. blah, blah.

And Saddam was at the helm because he had help from which western government???

And still The 9/11 terrorists have not been caught, and the Taliban is still an operational organisation.

And the rest of the world didn't believe the American Intel.. Our army got involved to make your USA invasion look good rather then just an admin on a blood lust.

Czuch: Putting people in jail is more expensive Czuch, didn't you know that?

Pedro Martínez: Ok.... If you must! Do you want a plastic thermite recipe?

Pedro Martínez: But the police would have taken the gun, and searched his property.

Czuch: Are you sure Bush would have been impeached?? I think you are just over reacting.

"Funny, he never gave the UN any evidence that he ever destroyed the ones not use."

Actually plenty of inspectors went in and looked and saw nothing. The UN were as such satisfied (as far as I am aware of) that he had no WMD's.

Just I feel the US military machine and admin was after a victory, ya know.. the feel good factor.

But that does not change the fact that people in Bush's admin knew they were lying to the US and the world!!

gogul: I think they might be still very sore at the USA for supplying Saddam with WMD's that he used against their soldiers during the Iran/Iraq war. Strictly speaking the USA is an accomplice in war crimes as they supplied the technology.

Artful Dodger: Strange.. as they were the ones for some time you've been complaining about MP's expenses over here from within Parliament. While everyone else was fat catting from the tax payers money!!

Czuch: Not just Howard Dean...

Well if you contend, as certain Republicans use to say to me... prove it. Show me the economic data that backs up your claim.

Czuch: because the damage was done. It's like a patient at a hospital getting sicker through doctors mistakes... you can't leave the patient like that can you? To do so would be cruel and a break in the oath made to take care of the patient

Czuch: Yes, you did. so I believe.
One of your guys says...

"In an interview airing tonight on the PBS weekly newsmagazine NOW, Colin Powell's former Chief of Staff Lawrence Wilkerson makes the startling claim that much of Powell's landmark speech to the United Nations laying out the Bush Administration's case for the Iraq war was false.

"I participated in a hoax on the American people, the international community, and the United Nations Security Council," says Wilkerson, who helped prepare the address."

"Shortly after the invasion, the Central Intelligence Agency, Defense Intelligence Agency, and other intelligence agencies largely discredited evidence related to Iraqi weapons and, as well as links to Al Qaeda, and at this point the Bush and Blair Administrations began to shift to secondary rationales for the war, such as the Hussein government's human rights record and promoting democracy in Iraq.[6][7]"

"Critics such as Democratic National Committee Chairman Howard Dean charged that the Bush and Blair administrations deliberately falsified evidence to build a case for war.[56] These criticisms were strengthened with the 2005 release of the so-called Downing Street Memo, written in July 2002, in which the former head of British Military Intelligence wrote that "the intelligence and facts were being fixed [by the US] around the policy" of removing Saddam Hussein from power.[57]

While the Downing Street Memo and the yellowcake uranium scandal lend credence to claims that intelligence was manipulated, two bipartisan investigations, one by the Senate Intelligence Committee and the other by a specially appointed Iraq Intelligence Commission chaired by Charles Robb and Laurence Silberman, found no direct evidence of political pressure applied to intelligence analysts.[58] An independent assessment by the Annenberg Public Policy Center found, however, that Bush Administration officials did misuse intelligence in their public communications. For example, Vice President Dick Cheney's September 2002 statement on Meet the Press that "we do know, with absolute certainty, that he (Saddam) is using his procurement system to acquire the equipment he needs in order to enrich uranium to build a nuclear weapon" was inconsistent with the views of the intelligence community at the time."

******

Enough to chew on?

Czuch: No, as the real experts, aka those who were doing the inspecting said Saddam had no WMD's

There was no expert saying he had WMD, just some vague comment from one person so I believe and he was dubious.

And no, this is not part of a normal economic cycle. This was due to lack of regulation world wide of the banking system... I mean.. how else do you explain how someone is able to keep a $50 billion dollars scam going?

Czuch: No. He and other economic experts just not think things were as bad as they were. And come to think of it... neither did you.

Czuch: Was it?? The page I found the interview on was dated December 2008.

Unless, the interview you saw was just a repeat of another one he did last year?? Who knows!!

The guy is saying the economy is in worse state then at first thought, what is wrong with that? We've had the same over here by our Government. I would you'd like to focus on that your current admin is trying to cut the budget deficit. I would have thought you would like that idea!!

Czuch: You forgot to mention...

"There is no short run other than keeping the economy from absolutely tanking. That's the only short run," Biden told me.
Biden said he has canvassed Republican and Democratic members of Congress about a second "big" and "bold" stimulus package . He said the Obama team is focused on creating jobs and spending on energy and information technology infrastructure.

"Every single person I've spoken to agrees with every major economist. There is going to be real significant investment, whether it's $600 billion or more, or $700 billion, the clear notion is, it's a number no one thought about a year ago," he said.

The future vice president said the struggling economy will be the number one priority for the Obama Administration next year. "

******************
I'm surprised as a republican, that it took you so long to pick up on this story as the interview was in December last year.

Snoopy: And they will get more power unless some things change. And it's gotta be more than a scrap of bread.

Czuch: Still being looked into.

Artful Dodger: Trouble is you need as many voters behind it as possible. EG regulation of health care companies. The lobbying system, etc.

It has to be as it started out... one country.

Artful Dodger: Only way is for your fellow citizens to forget party and join together over one particular, or a few universal grudges.... and ya TV and radio to back the USA population. As long as they split ya..

a few whistle blowers helps

Artful Dodger: Several MP's have stood down, or been told that they will not stand at the next election. ... And the Home secretary has resigned.. and good riddance!! She was an idiot.

Heads are rolling.

heavenlyemma: I'm not perfect as you say.. you should know better then all here.

But I'm willing to learn and have adapted some interesting methods of looking at things. Black and white just don't work for me!! Even grey is not enough sometimes.

Czuch: Aye... we have laws and some are outdated or do not cover modern problems..... So, we need Government, but we need one free of corruption. Two Lords over here have been caught talking about taking money to influence legislation as part of a sting op by journalists. This is the kind of thing we do not need.

Czuch: Most of it is simple morality, But many bosses don't care about that.. just money.

I can see how some will be weeded out by the free market, but some will not. I expect the government to regulate and set rules of good business.

EG banned directors... One guy who had been banned for fraudulent business practices, just set up another business and hoped to get away with it. In your world he would, the government is through info supplied by the public stopping it.

Is that a bad thing?

Czuch: Because not everyone does something, and some companies (like paypal) can make it difficult to sort out matters. In our case, I had to look on the internet for a number I was told did not exist... ie the companies complaints dept number. I was told by all their customer care people I could not call them and would have to just communicate by mail.

They lied.

That's why we need governments to regulate and make laws to protect consumers. In the end paypal might be kicking itself in the bum, but it may take years before things change.

EG.... Our government and the expenses policy which has been going on since the Thatcher days and nobody has within the organisation has spoken up till recently.

Same with your medical system, the health companies are pretty much a law onto themselves... you lobbyist system is lining pockets, etc, etc .... and we have had more over here.

You want a totally free market with no government sticking it's oar in.... Then expect similar with every company. And I'd forget about taking medicines as no-one will be there to stop them marketing and selling rubbish.

Our 'free' market now is costing people lives.. Have you seen how people in India recycle computers? How sweat shops look?? How people earn peanuts, yet we get charged 1000 times more???

A shop I worked for sold one item for 99p some 15 years back... It cost them 6p even with being imported from India... how much do you think the workers earned per item?

Czuch: No, it is not possible. It's a position where all sides can generally get along better from. The majority are not always right, that's why we have the terms we do now to describe various public moods and ideals. You just can't redefine a word to suit your argument.

Czuch: No, anarchy would still be anarchy. And moderates would still be moderates.

I thought a social democracy would be a pure communist state, not a fake Stalin type.

You can protect people from fraud. Or do you consider it right for people to be taken for a ride?

Czuch: moderation is extremism..... one word. No.

The UK is a mixed economy, part capitalist and part social.

You liked the Bush admin, but want this government out of your way..... Ok.
You want the government to stay out of the way, but are you prepared to accept an unregulated market? So you don't think the recent things like the Intel corp rigging the market so companies only used their chips instead of AMD is an acceptable thing?

You think conclusion between companies to effectively rig prices is a good thing?
Your country was founded on the idea to protect it's citizens from all enemies.. Foreign and Domestic.

What is a depression in relation to it's effect on the American economy? What is a world wide depression in respect to America's economy?

.... And an uncontrolled collapse of the American economy would have what results?