Artful Dodger: They protect many rights, including those of Christians and other religious groups.

It is while living with Jubal, that Mike begins his quest to "grok" the human condition. Grok is a basically untranslatable Martian term but it is a measure of the novel's impact that the word has sufficient gravitas to be defined in several dictionaries. For instance, The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language defines it as "to understand profoundly through intuition or empathy." That's about as close as you can get to a definition, and as is readily stated in the novel, you really have to have grown up Martian to truly Grok the word. Heinlein writes a wonderfully convoluted tale, creating an incredibly rich weave from the many threads that run through the story. For instance, he creates a legal history upon which Mike's claim to be defacto owner of Mars (and incidentally much of the moon) is based, and this further allows him to touch on the moral ambiguity of laying claim to an already inhabited planet; shades of settlers encroaching on the land of native American Indians. Indeed, the entire book is a minefield of social commentary and discussion, much of it as muddled as it is profound.

The muddle is in fact one of the charms of the book. The characters grow and evolve significantly as the story progresses, and Mike is not the only one to learn what it is to be human, though the conclusions will not be to everyone's liking.

heavenlyemma: I remember in one of Heinlein's books "Stranger in a Strange Land"... The Martians being a far superior race destroyed a world in our system, as the race was to insane and violent to be allowed to exist... hence the asteroid belt.

.... Oh they thought about Earth as well, but thanks to a kid they saw we had potential to grow and change.

Vince Cable has called for highly paid executives in the private and public sectors to be named and shamed.

In his speech to the Lib Dem spring conference, the party's deputy leader demanded full disclosure of salaries more than £194,000 - what the PM earns.

The move would ensure "fat cats have nowhere to hide", he told delegates.

Publicly listed firms publish board members' pay but Mr Cable claimed some of the highest earners do not join boards to avoid full disclosure.

The Lib Dem Treasury spokesman, who has been one of the leading critics of excessive City salaries, criticised what he called "extreme, obscene, inequalities of reward".

But he extended criticism to public sector employees who expect bonuses whether they succeed or fail.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7929664.stm

heavenlyemma: I don't blame them for not being happy with us. We (well our leaders) play to many silly games, that could well be considered very kiddish.

One message they could be trying to send by the more dramatic first encounters recently is... "you ain't that big and powerful"

heavenlyemma: Oh no they are not!! If they had wanted to do that they could have done it years ago.... But there again... some council could be looking at our case and whether they think we are sane enough to be part of the Galaxy.... as I guess as within a hundred years we might have developed the tech to start exploring.

heavenlyemma: Nahhhh according to Jewish history, they've been saved from the Romans which was that bit in Rev's being fulfilled, and Ghenna is long since gone. But as Pardes rules go, it still gives a message of the end of evil and hope for those suffering through the awakening process.

Artful Dodger: It's an open board, I'll say my opinion if feel so. There is nothing illegal about that... I mean, if being opinionated was illegal.... How many politicians would still have a job.

Artful Dodger: Chill dude, it ain't the end of the world.

"It's a fact that you do this to me and it's also a fact that you do this with others."

Blimey.. a fact? ... if you say so.

Artful Dodger: I think it was you said Fox was your most trusted source, either that or that Fox news is the most trusted or should be in America.

As usual I am making a false statement.. That's an opinion from a person on the other side of the political spectrum... I hope you don't mind that I don't pay any attention to such a comment.

Artful Dodger: That's not what you've said in the past.

Nicaragua (1979-90)
See also: Iran-Contra affair
Further information: Psychological Operations in Guerrilla Warfare

Following the rise to power of the left-wing Sandinista government in Nicaragua, the Ronald Reagan administration ordered the CIA to organize and train the Contras, a right wing guerrilla group. On December 1, 1981, President Reagan signed an initial, one-paragraph "Finding" authorizing the CIA's paramilitary war against Nicaragua.[63]

The Republic of Nicaragua vs. The United States of America[64] was a case heard in 1986 by the International Court of Justice which found that the United States had violated international law by direct acts of U.S. personnel and by the supporting Contra guerrillas in their war against the Nicaraguan government and by mining Nicaragua's harbors. The US was not imputable for possible human rights violations done by the Contras. The Court found that this was a conflict involving military and para-military forces and did not make a finding of state terrorism.

Florida State University professor, Frederick H. Gareau, has written that the Contras "attacked bridges, electric generators, but also state-owned agricultural cooperatives, rural health clinics, villages and non-combatants." U.S. agents were directly involved in the fighting. "CIA commandos launched a series of sabotage raids on Nicaraguan port facilities. They mined the country's major ports and set fire to its largest oil storage facilities." In 1984 the U.S. Congress ordered this intervention to be stopped, however it was later shown that the CIA illegally continued (See Iran-Contra affair). Professor Gareau has characterized these acts as "wholesale terrorism" by the United States.[65]

In 1984 a CIA manual for training the Nicaraguan Contras in psychological operations was leaked to the media, entitled "Psychological Operations in Guerrilla War".[66]

The manual recommended “selective use of violence for propagandistic effects” and to “neutralize” government officials. Nicaraguan Contras were taught to lead:

...selective use of armed force for PSYOP psychological operations effect.... Carefully selected, planned targets — judges, police officials, tax collectors, etc. — may be removed for PSYOP effect in a UWOA unconventional warfare operations area, but extensive precautions must insure that the people “concur” in such an act by thorough explanatory canvassing among the affected populace before and after conduct of the mission.
—James Bovard, Freedom Daily[4]

Former State Department official William Blum, has written that "American pilots were flying diverse kinds of combat missions against Nicaraguan troops and carrying supplies to contras inside Nicaraguan territory. Several were shot down and killed. Some flew in civilian clothes, after having been told that they would be disavowed by the Pentagon if captured. Some contras told American congressmen that they were ordered to claim responsibility for a bombing raid organized by the CIA and flown by Agency mercenaries."[67] According to Blum the Pentagon considered U.S. policy in Nicaragua to be a "blueprint for successful U.S. intervention in the Third World" and it would go "right into the textbooks".[68]

Colombian writer and former diplomat Clara Nieto, in her book "Masters of War", describes the Reagan administration as "the paradigm of a terrorist state" remarking that this was "ironically, the very thing Reagan claimed to be fighting."

We cannot provide here a complete overview of the Iran-Contra affair. We shall attempt, rather, to give an account of George Bush's decisive, central role in those events, which occurred during his vice-presidency and spilled over into his presidency. The principal elements of scandal in Iran-Contra may be reduced to the following points:

1) the secret arming of the Khomeini regime in Iran by the U.S. government, during an official U.S.-decreed arms embargo against Iran, while the U.S. publicly denounced the recipients of its secret deliveries as terrorists and kidnappers--a policy initiated under the Jimmy Carter presidency and accelerated by the Reagan-Bush administration;

2) the Reagan-Bush administration's secret arming of its `` Contras '' for war against the Sandinista regime in Nicaragua, while such aid was explicitly prohibited under U.S. law;

3) the use of communist and terrorist enemies--often armed directly by the Anglo-Americans--to justify a police state and covert, oligarchical rule at home;

4) paying for and protecting the gun-running projects with drug- smuggling, embezzlement, theft by diversion from authorized U.S. programs, and the `` silencing '' of both opponents and knowledgeable participants in the schemes; and

5) the continual, routine perjury and deception of the public by government officials pretending to have no knowledge of these activities; and the routine acquiescence in that deception by Congressmen too frightened to oppose it.

In the early days of the Korean War, other American officers observed, photographed and confidentially reported on such wholesale executions by their South Korean ally, a secretive slaughter believed to have killed 100,000 or more leftists and supposed sympathizers, usually without charge or trial, in a few weeks in mid-1950.

Extensive archival research by The Associated Press has found no indication Far East commander Gen. Douglas MacArthur took action to stem the summary mass killing, knowledge of which reached top levels of the Pentagon and State Department in Washington, where it was classified "secret" and filed away.

Now, a half-century later, the South Korean government's Truth and Reconciliation Commission is investigating what happened in that summer of terror, a political bloodbath largely hidden from history, unlike the communist invaders' executions of southern rightists, which were widely publicized and denounced at the time.

It was revealed this week that South Korea’s Truth and Reconciliation Commission is concluding the US military indiscriminately killed large groups of South Korean civilians during the Korean War in the early 1950s.

The commission has more than 200 cases on its docket, based on hundreds of citizens’ petitions recounting US bombing and strafing runs on South Korean refugee gatherings in 1950 and ’51. The citizens’ petitions have accumulated since 1999, when the Associated Press confirmed the 1950 refugee killings at No Gun Ri in 1950, where some 400 civilians, mostly women and children, were killed by US troops.

Concluding its first investigations, the commission is urging the South Korean government to seek US compensation for victims. South Korean legislators have also asked a US Senate committee to join them in investigating declassified evidence that American ground commanders had adopted a policy of deliberately targeting refugees.

Oakland Post
11-25-1998
U.S. Army Report Indicates Allegations of WWII Massacres Of African-American Troops

United States Representative Bennie G. Thompson (D-MS) received a report from the United States Army November 13 in response to his request the Secretary to Defense, William Cohen, conduct an investigation of the recent allegations that African-American soldiers may have been massacred at an Army base in Mississippi during World War II.

The Slaughter: An American Atrocity recently published by Mr. Carroll Case raises the possibility that more than a thousand African-American soldiers in the 364th Infantry were massacred by the Army while stationed at Camp Van Dorn in Mississippi ...

The bloody atrocity at No Gun Ri, a hamlet 100 miles south of Seoul, has been known in South Korea for decades, but a series of pro-US military dictatorships suppressed any public protest or investigation. The facts were kept secret in America as well, until several US veterans who witnessed the events gave interviews to the Associated Press this fall.

Six veterans of the 1st Cavalry Division of the US Army told AP they fired on the refugees at No Gun Ri and six others said they saw the shootings. Army units retreating through South Korea in the face of the North Korean offensive at the beginning of the war had been ordered to shoot civilians on the pretext that North Korean soldiers might be hiding among them. In the neighboring 25th Infantry Division, the commander told his troops that "all civilians seen in this area are to be considered as enemy and action taken accordingly." The Korean survivors say there were no North Korean troops within miles and the killings were not related to combat.

American soldiers from the 1st Cavalry Division drove out the population from two villages near No Gun Ri, telling them North Koreans were coming. As the refugees neared No Gun Ri, US soldiers ordered them off the road and onto a parallel railroad track. US planes strafed the area, killing100. Americans then directed the refugees into the railroad bridge underpass and after dark opened fire on them. One veteran, Eugene Hesselman of Kentucky, recalled that Capt. Melbourne C. Chandler ordered machine gunners to open fire, with the statement, "Let's get rid of all of them."

Czuch: It was rather brutal, and these are the reported events.

And there are always some bad apples.

Czuch: Sometimes you have to inject money into a system or company for the short term to tide over a bad period.

And ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Income_Taxes_By_Country.svg

You'll see income tax rates

The My Lai Massacre (My Lai.ogg pronunciation (help·info), approximately [mi.˧˩˥'lɐːj˧˧])[1] (Vietnamese: thảm sát Mỹ Lai) was the mass murder of 347 to 504 unarmed citizens in South Vietnam, entirely civilians and some of them women and children, conducted by U.S. Army forces on March 16, 1968. Some of the victims were sexually abused, beaten, tortured, or maimed, and some of the bodies were found mutilated.[2] The massacre took place in the hamlets of Mỹ Lai and My Khe of Sơn Mỹ village during the Vietnam War.[3][4] Of the 26 US soldiers initially charged with criminal offences for their actions at My Lai, only William Calley was convicted. He served three years of his life sentence.

Charles Martel: Compared to what the USA did in Iraq with telling the people to revolt after GWI against Saddam and then leaving them helpless and without support, the Small Dutch force's teeth are like the Osmond's

If this is going to be a 'points' match.

Czuch: The UN is toothless!!! Have you missed the Yugoslav war that involved ethnic cleansing by some parties involved? 39,000 soldiers from many countries.

It was news in Europe, didn't it reach the states?

Czuch: There is no income tax level of 70% in the UK. The maximum income tax rate is 40%. So where you get this 70% from is wrong.

No one is trying to stop it, it's already happened, just we are trying (most gov's) to make the bad period less bad.

Czuch: What about the governments put in power by support from the USA that oppress their people today. After all, Saddam was a tool for the USA at one point in regards to their war with Iran.

Is the USA gonna fix all it's mistakes regarding oppressive governments?

Czuch: TANSTAFL

There Ain't No Such Thing As Free Lunch.

You don't have a free market, there hasn't been a real free market for years in the western world. Certain countries as you well know have chosen in the past as well as now to 'control' some imports and exports.

Charles Martel: It's just politics, when you have hot heads on all sides some sort of activity like this is expected. We got our people back safe and sound and that is all that matters. You guys must know that kinda thing from cold war incidents involving spying, embassy kick outs, etc.

As for Basra.. Our military chiefs have kicked some butt over some of the reasons why with the government... Openly in interviews. Ex army chiefs have confirmed and backed up what was said.

.. and btw.. we are leaving Basra quicker then you guys are leaving the rest of Iraq. set backs happen, but it's what you do after to correct that counts.

Charles Martel:..... from what I've read and seen recently your government does not have control of the government as well as certain groups such as the CIA!!

Gee you guys have alot in common.

Charles Martel: Yep, but that is all for show. Likewise the USA using armed predators in a country that has not given permission for action to take place (which further talks would have probably resolved) is really respectful. *cough*

Artful Dodger: Yes he can say it is fact, by international law it was illegal. The only reason why we in the UK supported the USA in the Iraqi war was due to false information being presented to the Houses of Parliament and our MP's before they voted on this war. The information used has been shown beyond a shadow of doubt as being false.

And I think Tony Blair and his cabinet felt sorry for the USA, and wanted to protect you somewhat in your military not going in alone. And seeing as the UK military are more respected then your USA military, it was thought we'd be able calm things down after the invasion more quickly.

Artful Dodger: Neither have Israel, or the USA.

The Usurper: It sure sounds like it. It looks like the only thing your politicians in who knows how many years have been interested in is lining their pockets.

There is nothing wrong with being rich, but like one or more banks over here... they won't do it on the blood of others. Their policy is not to invest in any scheme which involves others suffering as a result of greed. They also run shops who's policy is in their own brand products to have as much 'fairtrade' items, or items to contain as much 'fairtrade' raw materials as possible.

Czuch: Ok... what did these economists say, what was their belief based on, and what evidence do they have to back up such a statement.

And as for what are we doing now.... We've had to rescue a few banks from collapsing thanks to (as shown via info) from collapse. We are updating our bank regulation laws. We are changing the banking system in that big bosses will no longer get fat cat rewards especially if they mess up. We are thinking of possible criminal prosecution of certain bank leaders. Our BoE Interest rates have been cut to 0.5%. Certain help has been given in legislation to cut down on the number of repo's on houses.

And also our PM is facing possible hard questions due to that he was the man in charge of looking after the finances of this country before he took over from Tony Blair.

The people of this country want action taken so that such mess up's cannot take place as has happened here. EG RBS (one of the banks we had to rescue) bought as part of a consortium a foreign bank, they as reported by people who were involved with the matter at the time of the take over DID NOT HAVE FULL ACCOUNTS OFF THAT BANK. Because if they did, they wouldn't have bought it, someone remarked that realistically the foreign bank should have paid RBS and the others money to take it over, as it's accounts showed that most of it's 'assets' in the way of loans owed to it by people, were bad, going to be written off or sub prime loans waiting to go bad.

A fix to make sure it doesn't happen again is the people of this countries main concern. As it has effected many pensions and other supposed secure investments of the people of the UK.

Czuch: Well it certainly didn't cause your country to fall into complete ruins.

Highly controversial... explain.

The Usurper: Interesting that the book confirms other observations regarding UFO's

They started to appear more soon after we exploded atomic bombs.

Maybe they have experience with planets being at this stage of development and choose to send a message in their coming here. "You are the human race and we are visitors from other races... get it human race."

The Usurper: It makes me think that America is heading towards a even bigger crises in the long run. Or..... A lot of people are going to get locked up.

.... It's makes me think that the land of the free is not a land of the free anymore. And the core of your government has sold out.

The Usurper: Big business tries to run America but fails badly. The way your lobbyist system allows so much pressure and greed within your political system it's diabolical. It seems that problem with the USA is the level of corruption and 'departments' that are not answerable to anyone.

... Oh I forgot... It's a secret. We shouldn't be talking about such things.... or we might get lent on.

Franklin D. Roosevelt and his new deal......

http://memory.loc.gov/learn/features/timeline/depwwii/newdeal/newdeal.html

" The New Deal Roosevelt had promised the American people began to take shape immediately after his inauguration in March 1933. Based on the assumption that the power of the federal government was needed to get the country out of the depression, the first days of Roosevelt's administration saw the passage of banking reform laws, emergency relief programs, work relief programs, and agricultural programs. Later, a second New Deal was to evolve; it included union protection programs, the Social Security Act, and programs to aid tenant farmers and migrant workers. Many of the New Deal acts or agencies came to be known by their acronyms. For example, the Works Progress Administration was known as the WPA, while the Civilian Conservation Corps was known as the CCC. Many people remarked that the New Deal programs reminded them of alphabet soup.

By 1939, the New Deal had run its course. In the short term, New Deal programs helped improve the lives of people suffering from the events of the depression. In the long run, New Deal programs set a precedent for the federal government to play a key role in the economic and social affairs of the nation. "

President Clinton...

".. There is a government inside the government and I don't control it."

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=3e4_1221312488

Recorded at the April 2008 X-Conference at the National Press Club, Washington D.C

saeco: Israel has interests in keeping the USA on it's side re UN resolutions, etc. Just think of the CIA and how it's worked over the last 50 years or so, or the KGB, and other organizations related to Intelligence. Our British Intelligence use to pass on info to Loyalists in Northern Ireland re IRA supporters or activists that they wanted removed.... The Loyalists would then kill these people.

"thats just ludacris.. feel free to convince me of the opposite."

Ok, this is what I've found on the matter so far......
http://dir.salon.com/story/news/feature/2002/05/07/students/index.html

"May 7, 2002 | In January 2001, the security branch of the U.S. Drug Enforcement Agency began to receive a number of peculiar reports from DEA field offices across the country. According to the reports, young Israelis claiming to be art students and offering artwork for sale had been attempting to penetrate DEA offices for over a year. The Israelis had also attempted to penetrate the offices of other law enforcement and Department of Defense agencies. Strangest of all, the "students" had visited the homes of numerous DEA officers and other senior federal officials."

"....... Reports of the mysterious Israelis with an inexplicable interest in peddling art to G-men came in from more than 40 U.S. cities and continued throughout the first six months of 2001. Agents of the DEA, ATF, Air Force, Secret Service, FBI, and U.S. Marshals Service documented some 130 separate incidents of "art student" encounters. Some of the Israelis were observed diagramming the inside of federal buildings. Some were found carrying photographs they had taken of federal agents. One was discovered with a computer printout in his luggage that referred to "DEA groups."

......"In some cases, the Israelis visited locations not known to the public -- areas without street addresses, for example, or DEA offices not identified as such -- leading authorities to suspect that information had been gathered from prior surveillance or perhaps electronically, from credit cards and other sources."....

".....The document detailing most of this information was an internal DEA memo: a 60-page report drawn up in June 2001 by the DEA's Office of Security Programs. The document was meant only for the eyes of senior officials at the Justice Department (of which the DEA is adjunct), but it was leaked to the press as early as December 2001 and by mid-March had been made widely available to the public."

Artful Dodger: It's inconsistent.....

It says..... "Following a 30-year trend of warming, global temperatures have flatlined since 2001 despite rising greenhouse gas concentrations, and a heat surplus that should have cranked up the planetary thermostat."

and then.... "This current cooling doesn't have one."

Flatlined or cooling, which is it?

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Then.....

"How does this square with temperature records from 2005-2007, by some measurements among the warmest years on record?"

and .... "When added up with the other four years since 2001, Swanson said the overall trend is flat,"

This to me confirms that the weather HAS got warmer over the last 3 years, also that misusing stats doesn't work. It'd be more accurate to use the 2008 temp figures to see how the current trend is going. Averaging out doesn't always give an accurate answer when dealing with trends.

The Usurper: So if Israel has a high level of spying in the USA, then from past knowledge of how certain aspects of spying work.. It would be fair to say some of your 'leaders' are being bribed, blackmailed, or if they are sympathetic.. basically working for Israel and not the USA.

"Also, a group of Israeli "art students," later discovered to be spies, were seen videotaping the planes striking the WTC from the top of a van on the New Jersey side of the Hudson...taping & cheering.

If that is true, then there needs to be a full investigation of 911 ASAP.

And I would insist that all people giving evidence have lie detectors attached to them... knowing that many that would be called are use to lying and can do so very well.

Czuch: when have we had a logical government ever?? Politics is not logical, it is a matter of opinion and belief. You've already stated that you are not entirely logical when it comes to thinking (re instinct aka gut feeling) so why presume our politicians are any different?

Czuch: So if Bin Laden was not responsible for 911, who is?

Artful Dodger: They over here changed the tax laws which affected the poor more then the rich. Brown was forces by the public uproar to amend the policy so that the poor did not lose out so much.

The America you know is in trouble, he's trying to fix it. Sure that might mean an increase in taxes in the short term, but TANSTAFL!!

If he fails, then your country will be in a bigger mess, even if the Repub's get in, it'll take a while for any new ideas or policies to come into effect. That's not a good idea, which may result in a longer recovery period.

And I don't see the problem with properly organised and regulated abortion. Better that then back street jobs like in the old days which resulted in baby and mother dying.

And to blame is ALL your governments that have refused or plain well couldn't be bothered to introduce proper regulation of your financial system.

Gordon Brown over here is facing a grilling over such lack of regulation, especially after we had a similar incident in the 80's (ie Black Monday) in which it was lack of regulation in the financial market and lack of regulation in certain aspects of the 'buying a house' market (guzumping [sp]) that caused the downfall back then. Also it must be noted that back then a boom system of fiscal policy was being used and like now.. the bubble burst.

How many times do we have suffer before the lessons are learnt?

Czuch: You missed the point, I was using an analogy of how humans can not be logically thought out.

Czuch: Because it took away resources from the real war which was to find the terrorist leaders who was supposed to have been responsible for 911.

Saddam could have waited, the people of Afghanistan could now be completely free of the Taliban or such that they are neutralised.

If anything and the USA wanted to loosen Saddam's grip on Iraq, a limited invasion of the Kurds area in the North and taking the southern area centralised around Basra would have imho been a better strategy while the concentration on get old Bin could be maintained at a high level.

Some say if you chase two rabbits you'll lose them both.

Artful Dodger: Which bit Art? As it is well known that an all out war in the middle east would cause great tribulation for the rest of the world. Some recon due to the desperation for resources it might result in major wars between countries fighting for that last drop.

We ain't got the tech at the mo to replace oil and you know that.

Artful Dodger: Nice scarecrow? pic... makes me think of the "Wicker man" the original.