Artful Dodger: I just don't just check Wikipedia Art...

I look at several sources.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/wwone/middle_east_03.shtml

The history of the fall of the Ottoman Empire and the invasion of Palestine.

Are you trying to tell me that all the people in that area at the end of WWI suddenly vanished and a new people came into existence filling the void?

http://www.zionism-israel.com/maps/Palestine1100tribes.jpg
And this ancient map showing Palestine divided by the twelve tribes of Israel.....

http://www.zionism-israel.com/Map_of_Palestine_1845.htm
And this map shows.....

And this about the end of Ottoman rule..
"In Egypt, too, British forces gained a new commander, General Sir Archibald Murray, and additional resources. By stages the mission of the Egyptian Expeditionary Force (EEF) evolved from a defence of Egypt to an invasion of Palestine.

First, the Sinai Desert, with its sand storms and searing temperatures, had to be crossed, a test of endurance as well as of engineering for the troops involved. Access to water dictated what could be achieved. Tens of thousands of camels and drivers were required to supply the thirsty soldiers, while a water pipe and a railway were extended to the borders of Palestine."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/wwone/middle_east_03.shtml

..."The region came to be known as Palestine in the time when the Greeks ruled the region beginning in about 333 B.C. The name “Palestine” comes from “Philistines,” the name of the people who settled in the narrow strip of land along the southeastern part of the Mediterranean coastline some time after 1200 B.C. (Take a look at this map to get a better sense of the area.) Today, “Palestine” refers to the area covered by Israel, Gaza, and Jordan.

The distance from Dan to Beersheba, the traditional northern and southern limits of Palestine, is around 150 miles. Two long valleys run north and south, one along the Mediterranean coast and the other along the Jordan River. Between these fertile farmlands are many small mountain ranges suitable for raising sheep. Deserts lie to the east of the Jordan and to the south and west of the Dead Sea."
http://www.americanbible.org/brcpages/palestine

An in Judaism 101....
"During World War I, the Zionist cause gained some degree of support from Great Britain. In a 1917 letter from British foreign secretary Lord Balfour to Jewish financier Lord Rothschild, the British government expressed a commitment to creating a Jewish homeland in Palestine. This letter is commonly known as the Balfour Declaration. Unfortunately, the British were speaking out of both sides of their mouth, simultaneously promising Arabs their freedom if they helped to defeat the Ottoman Empire, which at that time controlled most of the Middle East (including the modern states of Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, and Iraq, as well as significant portions of Saudi Arabia and northern Africa). The British promised the Arabs that they would limit Jewish settlement in Palestine mere months after the Balfour Declaration expressed support for "the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people." "

I think it's safe to say you are wrong Art, and need to restudy the history (ancient and modern) of the area, including who named it as a matter of when it was under government from another country.

That's why Israel found it so hard to be recognised as a country when it went to the UN and declared itself as a country.

The following is the text of the Balfour Declaration:

"His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."

Artful Dodger: .. Pre 1945 there was a Palestine where Israel is now.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Mandate_of_Palestine

Here's a nice map of it in 1924

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Palestine_N.JPG

Jim Dandy: Yep. They may then just put all of their efforts into building the country.. they do some good even at the mo.. just the bad element needs it's teeth pulled. It certainly is lining the pockets of alot of weapons manufacturers. They do like a lovely war.

Jim Dandy: And at the same time, seeing as their use to be a actual Palestine country, let them have a real one, not two bits with chips knocked off by a powerful neighbour.

It's so simple, yet no-one is doing it. Put UN checkpoints between the Israeli/Palestinian borders so no arms come in, etc, etc.... A bit of real security just like Israel wants.

Czuch: How can they take some land if no-one gives it to them? They are not exactly a country with advanced technology are they!!

And even if the international community (who have been trying to get involved legally for quite some while... but a certain country keeps vetoing action) gets involved, it'll mean more so that the Geneva Convention will be followed. But this time it'll be an international force between Hamas and Israeli forces. Far bigger then both sides together.... hopefully.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7815929.stm

Peace through ideas leading to a solution.

Czuch: Wrong Czuch.....

The Contracting Parties,

Having considered the declaration made by the General Assembly of the United Nations in its resolution 96 (I) dated 11 December 1946 that genocide is a crime under international law, contrary to the spirit and aims of the United Nations and condemned by the civilized world,

Recognizing that at all periods of history genocide has inflicted great losses on humanity, and

Being convinced that, in order to liberate mankind from such an odious scourge, international co-operation is required,

Hereby agree as hereinafter provided:

Article I: The Contracting Parties confirm that genocide, whether committed in time of peace or in time of war, is a crime under international law which they undertake to prevent and to punish.

Article II: In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

Article III: The following acts shall be punishable:

(a) Genocide;
(b) Conspiracy to commit genocide;
(c) Direct and public incitement to commit genocide;
(d) Attempt to commit genocide;
(e) Complicity in genocide.

Article IV: Persons committing genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in article III shall be punished, whether they are constitutionally responsible rulers, public officials or private individuals.

Article V: The Contracting Parties undertake to enact, in accordance with their respective Constitutions, the necessary legislation to give effect to the provisions of the present Convention, and, in particular, to provide effective penalties for persons guilty of genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in article III.

.. It's called the Geneva Convention and was signed after the events during WWII.

And here is a list of those who have not signed...

http://www.preventgenocide.org/law/gencon/nonparties-alpha.htm

I don't see the USA, Israel or the UK on that list on non signers.

Jim Dandy and Art: The Israel army fully admits that they have killed about 130 Hamas... where as 660 (approx) Palestinians have been killed since this action began. ie 530 (approx) civilians have been killed.

And btw.. where are people to run to in Gaza? There is nowhere to go. Even certain elements within Israel (B'Tselem) recognise that this war is wrong and that no-one will win.

And the International community is putting pressure on both sides. It's no good getting Hamas to stop if Israel carries on as that will just start Hamas off again.

The solution being put forward is for an international force to be in charge of the border crossings to let aid in and keep weapons out.

This reminds me of certain dictatorships of the past that said if one of our people is killed we will execute a hundred of your people... and what happened to them....

nearly 600 dead to 4 Israelies..... over the last ten days.

And now this....
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7814054.stm

What a great war... not

Czuch: Instant annihilation... Genocide is against the law and is considered a war crime. Eg.. one of the reason that we went to war against Saddam and others recently.

And using nukes in such an area close by where much of the world gets it's oil..

.... M.A.D!!! anyway.. doesn't the Americans have MOAB (GBU-43/B) now?

Czuch: You think that the idea of the extermination of Jewish people is a recent event.. Look back at the founders of the Protestant faith.

Jim Dandy: Well if a real deal peace plan and a real deal homeland plan for the Palestinians was drawn up and ratified by the Arab states nearby then the Hamas would look foolish if they did turn down such solutions.

And quite frankly I think there are many in Israel who don't want peace, as there are many in other supporting countries of Israel who don't want peace. If they did... why were so many efforts blocked over the years to sort out a real deal?

Artful Dodger: Iran has no borders with Israel. They don't matter that much in an agreement as such over the redrawing of borders do they.

Czuch: No.. I think they will settle for a complete homeland. Which will mean some of their Arab neighbours giving up some land.

Not that hard really, just the sides are to stubborn.

Czuch: Both sides and those who have allowed the situation to go on for decades need slapping. I'd kidnap all the leaders and put them on an island (with hidden cameras) till they got their act together and made a plan that can work. Of course there will need to be comprimises and give and take. But the alternative...

... I lived through the IRA period, I've also seen the end of that period. Nobody can say peace cannot be achieved as the end of the IRA and related hostilities by loyalists proves it can be done.

Czuch: It would entail all sides getting together and sorting out what is needed. A true Palestinian homeland... not two little bits of country, but a whole homeland.

How it may resolve things.... If the Palestinians have a stable living place then the call of extremists will not be so easily heard.

The other alternative is a continuation of the troubles. Even if Hamas is destroyed another group will fill the vacuum sooner then later. Like it use to be the PLO everyone talked about as being the BIG terrorists.

Jim Dandy: Hamas was formed in 1987, the problems started before that. They are just the result of a biased system and idiotic policies regarding the Palestinians.

The Palestinians should have been (through some land given up by their muslim brothers) a complete home land.

Also I find it hard to accept the devilling of the Hamas by USA citizens after the support they gave to the IRA in terms of funds and weapons. Also I find it hard for Americans to denounce terrorism after the many cases of interference and support to terrorist organisations during the cold war, just because the government in power of a country (such as Chile in the 70's) was socialist.

The "School of the Americas" as it was called in a UN report was citied as ""graduating 500 of the worst human rights abusers in the hemisphere."

http://daccessdds.un.org/doc/UNDOC/GEN/N00/679/37/PDF/N0067937.pdf?OpenElement

going on for years and years and years......

Artful Dodger: Killing will just make it worse not better. Maybe Israel should sit down with the rest of the middle east and work at a plan FULL STOP.

I could be chairman.. and clout anyone who acts like a kid and won't contribute to a lasting peace plan.

Artful Dodger: this problem is longer then a few years Art... it goes back decades. As I said earlier, if certain UN resolutions and security council actions had not been vetoed then maybe we would have already a sustainable peace.

And why target police stations ?

Artful Dodger: Sorry, but both sides are involved. Hama's killing Israelies and Israelies killing Palestinians.

Maybe we should set up a big 1 mile area sq and get all those who want to kill each other in there with just clubs.

Then both civilian populations can have a holiday and watch from the sidelines. AND NOT GET KILLED.

Artful Dodger: And a kid in Gaza is not a victim? That's wrong to dehumanise a whole country just because of some killers.

It's Hama's, Israel and others for letting the situation go on this long. I'm afraid you sound like those in NI who use to justify killing civilians on the side of the IRA just because they were pro IRA.

Czuch: That's the kinda attitude that led to the use of chemical weapons in WWI, the development of the H bomb and onto biological weapons that would kill all sentient life on this planet.

Boys and their toys of mass destruction.

Czuch: Not an answer.

Artful Dodger: No. Hamas and Israel are the problem, and that the UN has been blocked from taking action all these years by the USA.

... It's a bit difficult to move when there is no where really safe to move to.

Maybe, they should of just gone in land wise in the first place rather then using highly destructive weapons that no matter what will kill civilians.

And that the death toll is so one sided, just shows... It makes me think almost sometimes that the Israelies have turned into what they hated in some ways. Big bullies with big guns.

Czuch: That makes them even more innocent. And as for a densely populated area....

.... Ok, supposed during the cold war it got a little heated and the USSR launched some nukes at silo's in the USA and the missile went off target and wiped out an American city through radiation, heat and blast damage.

... You are saying this is ok?

Artful Dodger: How... they are killing innocent civilians. It comes from firing at 'military' targets in a dense population zone. No missile can distinguish between civilian and military.. it just goes to it's designated target (or nearby) and blows up.... BANG!!!

.. people die.

Czuch: Blimey .. If politicians stopped taking 'bribes' there might be some actual honest.. ish government.

Vikings: A very stupid power thing. We've had interpol for ages.

Vikings: They were not talking to each other!!!!! Where is the intelligence in that!

Vikings: Yeah well, we've seen over here politicians make new jobs for the boys.... Half the time they are just duplicating other peoples roles and are just high paid 'front men' so that the government looks like it's doing something.

Vikings: I think the FBI and CIA have been doing the job of defending your country's borders for years. "Homeland secretary" is just another 'title'.

Charles Martel: A 90 year old!!! what happened to retirement!!!!

Artful Dodger: Somehow I don't think having anyone lower then no.6 as your pres.

Charles Martel: I saw an American on TV last night pleading for us British to come and take over the USA again. Her words were that the USA had got the democracy thing wrong and needed retraining!!

Jim Dandy:

Czuch: Saddam was so bad that certain countries gave him WMD materials to use against Iran.... .... .... Mmmmmmm

As for sanctions and resolutions... The USA has always vetoed such action.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/UN/usvetoes.html

Read it Czuch. Israel has been living as though international law did not apply to it for decades.

Charles Martel: And the recent use of cluster bombs in Lebanon isn't exactly kosher. Leaving behind a country riddled with unexploded munitions that will more probably kill innocent civilians then para military forces....

If that had been done by Saddam, there would be uproar.

Artful Dodger: Has it? Has it given back all the land they nicked in the name of setting up more settlements.. I heard they were giving that land back, but not sure how it's progressed.

I think you'll find most ordinary Palestinians would just like to have a normal life, so would most of Israel citizens, but you get like you did in Northern Ireland where both sides squabble and kill each other in a tit for tat war.

And yes, I think the Palestinians would love a country of their own if it was secure, recognised and protected by the same international laws that apply to every other country. If that was done, don't you think the hatred by the extremists that they spread would have less ears listening?

And you are right.. There is plenty of land there, but thanks to all this fighting some serious getting down and talking about a secure safe region where all can live in their own country is not happening.

No-one is winning. No-one will win until some serious pressure from the rest of the world gets to happen. But the USA will probably block that.

.... Shame.

Charles Martel: I think the USA's right to veto on anything to do with the Israel/Palestine situation should be revoked.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/UN/usvetoes.html

Maybe then, people can actually get involved and slap both sides heads and with reasonable force tell them enough is enough, the rest of the world is getting sick and tired of your childish games of who owns the playground.

Artful Dodger: One of the comments from your link....

"United Earth
Afghanistan 31/12/2008

Plan B

The problem is is that both sides refuse to budge on their desires. To the PALs guy here, you cannot have Israel back. What is done is done and the clock cannot be rolled back. You must go to Plan B and demand a Palestinion state. Israel MUST give up land for peace. Have UN peacekeepers from China if necessary. Stop calling for the destruction of Israel and Israel must stop refusing to sacrifice land. Plan B is the only solution. Anything else is armagedden."

Artful Dodger: It's just a game of tit for tat to both sides it appears.

One thing that gets me... wouldn't the installation of anti missile mini gun systems (such as they use on ships) cut down on the incoming ordinance?

... Or is the joy of eye for eye on both sides taken over.

Czuch: It's not something I'd take as a certainty until governments stop this boom and bust system.

Czuch: Possibly.. but not for the owners of today. In the end it is determined by how long this 'depression' goes on for and how long the recovery period is.

Plus prices are likely to fall more before rising. We are at the start not the end of this economic down turn.

Czuch: It's dependent on certain %'s being true for the whole period. It's no guarantee... I don't think those with houses now think their houses are going to double in price.

Czuch: Home prices do not double every ten years, that is only in an economy that has no recessions or depressions... And from what I learnt from economic classes and from watching the worlds economy over the last 20++ years no economy is without down periods.

Vikings: They recon house prices here will fall possibly by upto 30%

Czuch: It's not just that Czuch... But home owners (at least over here) are facing a negative equity problem where their house is worth less then what they paid for it.

Not good.