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12. August 2009, 08:03:26
Übergeek 바둑이 
Subject: The Origins of Democracy and Welfare Capitalism
In response to this: "where does it say that this government must also supply health care and education and other social functions that you endorse?"

I think it is easy for us to forget where or why certain ideas come from, and how it was that modern society came to be. There is always some catalyst for change, and more often than not the motivating factor is some catastrophic social change that threatens all of society.

A good example is the French Revolution. James Mill, a famous Scottish philosopher of the early 19th century, noted that Europe needed the French Revolution, not because the revolution was good, but because people should realize that there should never be another one.

The French Revolution was a catalyst for change because it made the aristrocracy realize what would happen if the working class continued to be held without political power. The aristocracy was forced to give up some power and allow the merchant class (the early capitalists) to gain political power. It also allowed the birth of what would later become our modern representative democracies.

Then in 1917 the Russian Revolution occurred, and the capitalists who had monopolised a lot of the wealth and power of the world realized that capitalism had many serious problems. The Great Depression catalized the belief among the working classes that capitalism was failing to improve the lives of many working class people. Communism was becoming the ideology of choice among the working classes and the unions that represented their interests. In 1945 Stalin's Red Army occupied half of Europe and in 1949 China had its revolution. By then half of the world's land area and half of its people were under Communist rule.

Western economists looked at the problem and realized that high unemployment, runaway inflation and lack of services for the working class were fuelling Communist ideology and plunging capitalism into one economic crisis after the other. It was John Maynard Keynes, the great capitalist economist, who proposed "interventionist" policies in which the state would diminish the effects of bad economic cycles by controlling interest rates, the money supply and investment in public works.

Other economists, alarmed by the effects of poverty and the radicalization of the working class, championed "welfare capitalism" as a way to improve people's lives without destroying economic growth or plunging into revolution. Just as with the French Revolution, the Russian and Chinese Revolutions served as catalysts for change that led to better health care, education, social services, etc.

The question is, having seen the changes in world politics in the 20th century, can modern society exists without some form of "welfare state" that ensures that all citizens get the necessary health, education and social services? Is there still a risk that if those services are removed radical politics (like Communism and Anarchism) could regain impetus among the working classes?

Having grown up and lived in a country with virtually no "welfare state" I can say that it is impossible for any modern government to function effectively without some form of welfare system. Having lived in Canada, and having visited Europe many times I can say that the welfare state does lead to very high standards of living. Paying high taxes might be the drawback, but the quality of life seems to justify the taxation problem.

12. August 2009, 12:20:17
Czuch 
Subject: Re: The Origins of Democracy and Welfare Capitalism
Übergeek 바둑이: Having lived in Canada, and having visited Europe many times I can say that the welfare state does lead to very high standards of living. Paying high taxes might be the drawback, but the quality of life seems to justify the taxation problem.


I dont think it does.... here in the US we already DO insure all of our citizens necessary health, education and social services Nobody is asking to change that, but what advantage do we gain by moving much further into socialism?

12. August 2009, 16:04:57
Mort 
Subject: Re: but what advantage do we gain by moving much further into socialism?
Czuch: Less profit making.

12. August 2009, 18:57:16
Czuch 
Subject: Re: but what advantage do we gain by moving much further into socialism?
(V): Yes, less profit making... but I have no problem with profit making, in fact I like profit making, and it is profit making that makes economies grow, and I happen to like that, and believe thats what this world needs, and that your system only promotes stagnation and an average ho hum world with average ho hum people and we all just exist in this ho hum world until we die.

Not very exciting existence if you ask me

12. August 2009, 16:11:57
Übergeek 바둑이 
Subject: Re: The Origins of Democracy and Welfare Capitalism
Czuch:

> here in the US we already DO insure all of our citizens necessary health,
> education and social services

That is precisely the point. The US is already a form of a welfare state. However, not all citizens get the same services. If that were the case, there would be no debate on health care reform. Programs like No Child Left Behind would be unnecessary. Universities and colleges would be more accessible.

Certain things in certain countries are better, but at a higher taxation cost. It is a tough balancing act. Pay more taxes and get more services. Pay less taxes and have some of the lower income people have lower quality of services. It is an old debate going back to the Great Depression era.

I don't think the US needs to move more towards socialism. What countries like the US (and Canada and other industrialized nations) need is to move away from massive war spending. Less money into weapons, more money into health and education, and more money into the pension system for retirees. Next year (2010) people born in 1945 turn 65. The baby boomer generation will start retiring in big numbers. If something is not done now, a lot of retirees will end up with inadequate pensions and services. I think this is when the shift in thinking will happen. Governments will have no choice but to streamline their efficiency and stop waste in war.

12. August 2009, 18:02:01
Papa Zoom 
Subject: Re: The Origins of Democracy and Welfare Capitalism
Übergeek 바둑이: Programs like No Child Left Behind are typical of the government's failure to first understand the real problems and two, their inability to implement anything truly meaningful to address perceived problems. No child Left Behind is unsuccessful and is nothing more than the government implementing a program to score political points. The government is not the solution. They are most often the problem. Cash for clunkers is a sham. And all one needs to do is look at the failure of the US Post Office to make real money as a CLUE that the government can't run anything (but they are very good at ruining everything).

A government sponsored health care system will fail. The idiots in Washington are incapable of running such a huge enterprise. History proves this over and over again. Only private industry can make real change work. And only real and meaningful competition can keep costs down.

One reason the US health care costs are so high: The government makes "rules" that tie the hands of insurance companies. US health care companies cannot truly compete because of State and Federal regulations. Nation-wide insurance coverage availability doesn't exist. One guy in one State can pay less then his neighbor across the border. And you can't get insurance across the boarder because that violates State and Federal rules. Stupid. And Tort reform is necessary. 13000 insurance companies out there but I'm limited to but a few that are available to me.

12. August 2009, 18:25:46
Mort 
Subject: Re: US health care companies cannot truly compete because of State and Federal regulations. Nation-wide insurance coverage availability doesn't exist
Artful Dodger: Are you sure it's just the governments fault? Your lobbying system has alot I feel to do with the current mess. I am actually astonished that you don't have a nationwide insurance system amongst the companies. We've had it here re private medical insurance.

So.. if you want a nationwide scheme, why be against schemes to introduce it? that is one of the proposals. It's no good saying "our system is a mess" (parad) and then being against an attempt to fix the problem. Many have wanted a streamline scheme, but it's been blocked.

In that lies the problem. It's a headache and someone likes it.

12. August 2009, 19:12:39
Czuch 
Subject: Re: US health care companies cannot truly compete because of State and Federal regulations. Nation-wide insurance coverage availability doesn't exist
(V): Its not the fault of lobbyists that lobbying is a problem, its the fault of the government that lobbying is a problem

12. August 2009, 19:08:49
Czuch 
Subject: Re: The Origins of Democracy and Welfare Capitalism
Modified by Czuch (13. August 2009, 01:19:50)
Übergeek 바둑이: Universities and colleges would be more accessible.


Well, if we could do it by spending less on some areas, IE war, then I do not have any problem, but right now, the plan is to do it with tax increases.

I would personally rather buy a new boat and enjoy what short time we have on this planet, then subsidize some kid going to college, but thats just me. But if anyone else feels different, then what is stopping them from sending the government more of their own money? I dont see any socialist liberals doing that, and because most of them dont mind soaking other peoples money

I see these hollywood liberal elite types all the time bitching and complaining about all types of crap, I can get by on 50K per year, but they are the ones who want us all to be the same, the poor shrinking middle class, those hypocrites could give all their millions they earn to make a film, all except 50K each, and you could pay for every kid in the country to go to school free!!! But you will never see them, or any of the Pelosis of the world, the ones who really care about the common people, you will never see tham give any of their power or money away!!!!

12. August 2009, 23:27:37
tyyy 
Subject: Re: The Origins of Democracy and Welfare Capitalism
Modified by tyyy (13. August 2009, 01:20:15)
Czuch: I see these hollywood liberal elite types all the time bitching and complaining about all types of crap, I can get by on 50K per year, but they are the ones who want us all to be the same, the poor shrinking middle class, those hypocrites could give all their millions they earn to make a film, all except 50K each, and you could pay for every kid in the country to go to school free!!! But you will never see them, or any of the Pelosis of the world, the ones who really care about the common people, you will never see tham give any of their power or money away!!!!


Yes let them eat cake!!!Al gore and his disgusting ilk can go to ........

13. August 2009, 10:06:56
Mort 
Subject: Re: The Origins of Democracy and Welfare Capitalism
GTCharlie: Over here, and as much in Europe.. it's been the football players (soccer players to those in the USA) .... It's like a competition to get paid higher then someone else. I remember when the first transfer fee hit a million pounds and people thought that was huge... but as such other players have used that as a precedent to get more and more.

... and it's the football clubs that suffer, having to balance the books over ridiculous over paying. Which extends into endorsed products (fees) .. cost of team kits, etc.


But in the end.. how much money does anyone need to be happy? Or safe and secure??

Hollywood is just part of the 'cream team'.. it extends into business (fat cats) and many other fields and many political ideals.. One Conservative party top MP got caught on camera moaning about the expenses business and how now he had to fork out more as it would look bad if he claimed for gardening work.

So it should!!

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