Charles Martel: Very true, they certainly made a martyr of him. Total setup from the get-go. And whatever one might think of his religious beliefs, it's supposed to be a free country. The most unpardonable sin was the government's murder of innocent children.

Charles Martel: But at the rate we're going, we may not be here in 2,000 years, so it may be a moot point.

I also don't distinguish between Holocausts. Whether it is the events of Waco, the Germans exterminating the Jews, Stalin killing 20,000,000 Russians, Zionists destroying the lives of Palestinians, or Americans slaughtering Iraqis & Vietnamese....it's all the same. A spade is a spade.

The Usurper: Don't forget the crusades, the reformation wars and that the two founders of the protestant faith both wanted the Jews wiped off the face of the earth... for what they did to Christ, which I find kinda strange as if it wasn't for Their involvement in the 'death' of Christ we'd have no Christianity.

... Also if their wish had come true and the Jews had been wiped off the face of the earth then important info regarding the base of Christianity, ie Judaism and Pardes (a rule regarding interpretation of the Jewish scripture) would have been lost, and if that had happened, Christianity would basically have to shut up shop for being incomplete.

(V): You are so right on all these observations. God save us all from those who apparently call upon Him most fervently. And let's not forget that the ignorant St. Augustine, reverred by Protestants & Catholics alike, first laid out the doctrine that compulsion to make one a Christian, including by means of torture, was a good thing because thereby a soul was saved from Eternal Damnation. Amazing stuff, really.

I am beginning to wonder if, above & beyond all these forms of deception and control which seem to make of history a bloody shipwreck no matter the good intentions of the many, there might really be some demonic or otherworldly power pulling the strings....and perhaps feeding off the negative energy created through suffering.

I certainly don't know...but at least it's a theory which attempts to account for what is.

The Usurper: I remember one bit where to describe God as an 'energy' rather then some old man with a white beard was considered heresy. Pity that those who tried that didn't understand that the only reason God is called Father aka a 'he' is in regards to God's relation to us according to strict Judaic understanding, and that the Jewish language is by nature one that uses male and female as per the French language.

(V): Both the Jewish scriptures & the Christian present profound truths but unfortunately organized forms of religion tend to forget that "the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life." Symbolism is the rule in the great part of Scripture, but so few seem to possess "ears to hear."

This discussion might belong on the Religion board except for the fact that these belief systems effect our world politically so greatly. I might sometimes sound like a "Christian hater" but I am far from that. In fact (a bit of history), in 1988 I returned from preaching a sermon on holiness to the pastor's house, only to watch Jimmy Swaggart breaking down on the TV. This devastated me...I could not comprehend it at the time. It challenged all my belief system to the core...about myself, about God, about holiness...about everything. So Paul said, "Examine yourselves, to see if ye be in the faith." And any kind of understanding of the world must begin with personal soul-searching.

The Usurper: Symbolism is a very important part of scripture, It is said that there are four levels of interpretation regarding Jewish scriptural writing. There is also a saying that to save the world you have to save one person only.... yourself.

Just the start of Genesis has several meanings, including one that goes with the idea of the God inside and those who have lived in darkness. The cry "Let there be light"

As for the spirit...... some would say that is present and visible everywhere if you have the ability to see it. It's not just in us but exists in it's holy form everywhere. And seemingly.... as some know... especially visible around those in need of extra support.

The only problem I have today with certain Christians is their seemingly trust in the word of others without using their mind and soul to reflect and feel the word of God. As certain philo's would say they have given up their ability to be like God aka an unmoved mover and in as such full illumination.

But.. It's early days yet for us as a race.