The Usurper: Aye, the USA if it had supported the resolutions could have given rise to this problem being resolved years ago.

I can't understand why a country would support state terrorism, leaving blood on their hands as a result of their actions.

But there again.... Many USA citizens supported the IRA giving them guns and money while they were killing British soldiers and civilians, as well as Northern Ireland residents.

(V): "I can't understand why a country would support state terrorism"

They support it because it is profitable. Our leaders are the extremist radicals we accuse Ahmadinejad & all Arabs of being. Death in the Middle East = Money. It is also a lever of world power, the ultimate motive.

The Usurper: Aye, power.... I swear I get the felling that our leaders half the time brains are in respect to emotional and other essential adult developments no older then 10 years old.

...... Or is it that they never left puberty and it's still controlling them.

(V): I swear I get the felling that our leaders half the time brains are in respect to emotional


90% of liberal politics are based on emotions.....

Czuch: Are they? When I think I regarding a matter in which a person or people are involved I use my Intelligence, knowledge, wisdom and yes how I feel. Also if I don't know I'll ask someone or research using various search parameters to gain information from various people, including when needed professional organisations or in the case of a certain matter at home a government body for an explanation of the law and regulations regarding the subject at hand.

I also use reflective meditation techniques as a method of problem solving, which involve emptying the mind, which usually leads to several alternative possibilities regarding a matter of which one viable solution to a problem then makes itself clear, with back up solutions still available if it don't work.

..... It's great when you solving a problem that requires careful planning or thoughtfulness.

... How do you think when it comes to matters?

(V): How do you think when it comes to matters?

A combo of logic and instinct....

Czuch:   Easy one for me to answer:  Correctly

Artful Dodger: That is a matter of opinion, some of your ideas quite honestly would create more problems then solve them.

.... I mean, the destruction of the Palestinian people would cause a war in the middle east... and quite frankly Israel's only hope of survival after being Public enemy No.1 in both the the middle east and most of the world would be to use nukes.... And I think then even the USA would find it hard to justify supporting Israel.

And golly... An radio active middle east would not be good for the world as shortages and price increases would soon occur. Remember, we are reliant on oil. An analogy would be the Guild's (Dune the book) words "The spice must flowwwwwww".

They call it Mutually Assured Destruction or M.A.D. for short, commonly used to refer to the cold war and that both sides knew that there was no way to win in a nuclear war. All involved lose.

(V):

Artful Dodger: Nice scarecrow? pic... makes me think of the "Wicker man" the original.

(V):  It represents your strawman argument. 

Artful Dodger: Which bit Art? As it is well known that an all out war in the middle east would cause great tribulation for the rest of the world. Some recon due to the desperation for resources it might result in major wars between countries fighting for that last drop.

We ain't got the tech at the mo to replace oil and you know that.

(V): As it is well known that an all out war in the middle east would cause great tribulation for the rest of the world.


Why would you be so adamant against trying to bring some stability and prosperity to Iraq then?

Czuch: Because it took away resources from the real war which was to find the terrorist leaders who was supposed to have been responsible for 911.

Saddam could have waited, the people of Afghanistan could now be completely free of the Taliban or such that they are neutralised.

If anything and the USA wanted to loosen Saddam's grip on Iraq, a limited invasion of the Kurds area in the North and taking the southern area centralised around Basra would have imho been a better strategy while the concentration on get old Bin could be maintained at a high level.

Some say if you chase two rabbits you'll lose them both.

(V): But, you can even ask Usurper, there werent two rabbits to chase, Bush obviously knew that Bin Laden was a rouse, and did the right thing by not wasting time chasing a rouse... well we certainly loosed saddams grip all right, I would say

Czuch: So if Bin Laden was not responsible for 911, who is?

Czuch: Logic is good when it comes to computers, it is not always a successful answer when dealing with people, as you are dealing with a being, whether awake or asleep you are still dealing with a being who by the very nature of being a being is not a purely logical entity. If you (like I have) studied some statistics regarding error factors and such when it comes to the likes of polls, you'd know that the figures are not perfect. When it comes to humans you also have to consider that empirical experience will lead to people reacting in different ways, the weather, if they've had a bad day or not, financial problems, etc, etc, etc. Then there are the regional and country variations based on culture, education, peer pressure, genetics, etc, etc.

So to logically think about people and certain situations you'd have to keep this all in mind at the same time. Basically the only thing that can do that now is an Entity as we have not yet being able to create a machine with true AI.

As for gut, that's a good thing, following your beliefs whether correct or not is fine, but you must keep in mind that we are a developing creature by nature of our creation, we are not constant.

(V): If you (like I have) studied some statistics regarding error factors and such when it comes to the likes of polls, you'd know that the figures are not perfect.

I know that most of the problems with polls are the ambiguous questions.... "are you happy with the way Bush is running the country?"

Well, 90% could answer that one NO.... but the question does not lead us to any real conclusions as to why.... a liberal might answer no because they are against the war in Iraq, and a conservative might answer no because they think he is acting too much like a liberal. Most polls are more of a waste of time and only serve to cloud issues more than shed any light on things.

Czuch: You missed the point, I was using an analogy of how humans can not be logically thought out.

(V): So, because humans are not a logical being, it means we cannot have a logical government?

Czuch: when have we had a logical government ever?? Politics is not logical, it is a matter of opinion and belief. You've already stated that you are not entirely logical when it comes to thinking (re instinct aka gut feeling) so why presume our politicians are any different?

(V): The latest example:

"US to boycott UN racism conference"
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/americas/2009/02/200922855014421433.html

Alas, Obama is no Martin Luther King, Jr. More like a white elitist in black skin. No significant U.S. policies will change during his administration. The ploy worked....America's anger at its criminal government funneled into a false hope. This is how it is designed to work. No matter which rascals you throw out, you're stuck with the same rascals.

The Usurper: Who runs the USA? Israel or the United States?

(V): "Who runs the USA? Israel or the United States?"

There are many duel Israeli-U.S. citizens at the top of the food chain. So one could make an argument either way. To which country is a duel citizen most loyal? Hmmmmm.... On the other hand, Israel does a lot of spying on U.S. soil, including high intel matters. But a blind is turned. It's an interesting question.

The Usurper: So if Israel has a high level of spying in the USA, then from past knowledge of how certain aspects of spying work.. It would be fair to say some of your 'leaders' are being bribed, blackmailed, or if they are sympathetic.. basically working for Israel and not the USA.

"Also, a group of Israeli "art students," later discovered to be spies, were seen videotaping the planes striking the WTC from the top of a van on the New Jersey side of the Hudson...taping & cheering.

If that is true, then there needs to be a full investigation of 911 ASAP.

And I would insist that all people giving evidence have lie detectors attached to them... knowing that many that would be called are use to lying and can do so very well.

(V): "If that is true, then there needs to be a full investigation of 911 ASAP"

It is very true, and one of the dozens of reasons I and many others are calling for this full investigation. Lie detectors & subpoena power, absolutely.

Your point about Israel's influence on the U.S. is well made. This would seem to be part of a joint global for eventual world domination, beginning perhaps with the overthrow of the Arab regions. A full investigation, if truly unencumbered by White House & other pressure, would reveal plenty. And heads would roll.

The Usurper: It makes me think that America is heading towards a even bigger crises in the long run. Or..... A lot of people are going to get locked up.

.... It's makes me think that the land of the free is not a land of the free anymore. And the core of your government has sold out.

(V): "It's makes me think that the land of the free is not a land of the free anymore. And the core of your government has sold out."

That is correct. And if we want it to become the Land of the Free again, it must first become, again, the Home of the Brave. We need an informed, courageous citizenry to stand up to the powers who have consistently & continually violated our Bill of Rights, and asserted control in all our private affairs...and, more, taken our wealth to enrich a few through the slaughter & subjugation of multitudes.

In short, the Contract is null & void. It has been broken by the Government. It is high time to bring this system to its knees, alter or abolish it, and constitute new government better fitted to secure the rights of the people.

The Usurper: It sure sounds like it. It looks like the only thing your politicians in who knows how many years have been interested in is lining their pockets.

There is nothing wrong with being rich, but like one or more banks over here... they won't do it on the blood of others. Their policy is not to invest in any scheme which involves others suffering as a result of greed. They also run shops who's policy is in their own brand products to have as much 'fairtrade' items, or items to contain as much 'fairtrade' raw materials as possible.

(V): To further bolster the point, the PNAC document, "Rebuilding America's Defenses," publishing September 2000 & laying out a strategy for future control of the Middle East (with the help of "a new Pearl Harbor"), is a Neo-Con document, many of whose contributors made it into Bush's White House and are duel Israeli-U.S. citizens.

(V): Even Fox News gets it right sometimes. It produced a 4-part expose of the Israeli Spy Ring in America. Real investigative reporting. But the series was pulled and even removed from Fox's internet archives. It can still be found online.

saeco: Israel has interests in keeping the USA on it's side re UN resolutions, etc. Just think of the CIA and how it's worked over the last 50 years or so, or the KGB, and other organizations related to Intelligence. Our British Intelligence use to pass on info to Loyalists in Northern Ireland re IRA supporters or activists that they wanted removed.... The Loyalists would then kill these people.

"thats just ludacris.. feel free to convince me of the opposite."

Ok, this is what I've found on the matter so far......
http://dir.salon.com/story/news/feature/2002/05/07/students/index.html

"May 7, 2002 | In January 2001, the security branch of the U.S. Drug Enforcement Agency began to receive a number of peculiar reports from DEA field offices across the country. According to the reports, young Israelis claiming to be art students and offering artwork for sale had been attempting to penetrate DEA offices for over a year. The Israelis had also attempted to penetrate the offices of other law enforcement and Department of Defense agencies. Strangest of all, the "students" had visited the homes of numerous DEA officers and other senior federal officials."

"....... Reports of the mysterious Israelis with an inexplicable interest in peddling art to G-men came in from more than 40 U.S. cities and continued throughout the first six months of 2001. Agents of the DEA, ATF, Air Force, Secret Service, FBI, and U.S. Marshals Service documented some 130 separate incidents of "art student" encounters. Some of the Israelis were observed diagramming the inside of federal buildings. Some were found carrying photographs they had taken of federal agents. One was discovered with a computer printout in his luggage that referred to "DEA groups."

......"In some cases, the Israelis visited locations not known to the public -- areas without street addresses, for example, or DEA offices not identified as such -- leading authorities to suspect that information had been gathered from prior surveillance or perhaps electronically, from credit cards and other sources."....

".....The document detailing most of this information was an internal DEA memo: a 60-page report drawn up in June 2001 by the DEA's Office of Security Programs. The document was meant only for the eyes of senior officials at the Justice Department (of which the DEA is adjunct), but it was leaked to the press as early as December 2001 and by mid-March had been made widely available to the public."

saeco: "thats just ludacris.. feel free to convince me of the opposite."

An article in Foreign Policy Journal has the following:

"Baer also indicated that the 9/11 Commission Report had been a cover-up of what really happened and questioned why certain other oddities about 9/11 had not been investigated, such as “the famous white van”, which he said was “an intriguing story” that “deserves a book”.

"He was referring to the case of the five Israelis who were witnessed on 9/11 celebrating beside their white van at the sight of the smoking towers from a parking lot in New Jersey. They were later arrested and detained. Upon arrest, the driver of the van told the arresting officers, “We are Israeli. We are not your problem. Your problems are our problems. The Palestinians are the problem.”

"The van was registered to an Israeli-owned company called Urban Moving Systems, whose owner immediately closed shop and fled to Israel. At least two of the five Israelis witnessed videotaping and celebrating the attacks were learned to be operatives of Mossad, the Israeli intelligence agency."

This articles, entitled "High-Fivers and Art Student Spies: What Did Israel Know in Advance of the 9/11 Attacks?" has more:

http://www.counterpunch.org/ketcham03072007.html

To find these, I just googled: "israeli art students celebrating wtc collapse on van"

There are plenty of related articles to sift through.