The addendum to my last post is you may bet correctly and STILL get beaten on ONE hand, TWO hands, even MANY hands. BUT, over time you will begin to notice that you are making more money with these plays than if you had not made them. Playing a hand perfectly and getting all of your money taken is why we have a saying:

"That's Poker".

As a poker player myself, I have witnessed many river "miracles".

The problem with statistics is there is ALWAYS a chance that someone will get a card to beat you. If you have the lead at the flop, you must BET like you have the lead. Failing to do so allows for someone to take odds that are favorable to beat you.

For instance, if someone has four cards to a flush on the flop (two clubs in the hole, two on the board), there is ALMOST a 1 in 4 chance they will make their flush on every card. Therefore if you think you are AHEAD and you have multiple opponents, you must bet MORE than 1/2 of the total pot to DENY them the correct odds (if you bet 1/2 they will have 1 to 3 odds, plus the potential to make more money off of you, easy to call). If you are NOT betting correctly, people will stay in the hand, they will beat you, and you will complain.

For a more in depth discussion of proper betting in no limit hold em, see Harrrington on Hold Em, a great book for both the tournament and cash game player ( although geared more for tournament hold em).

Here's a situation where this applies, but in a different way...

You have A J, both diamonds. Your opponent has Q Q. The pot is 150 to start (50/ 100 blinds), your opponent is in First Position pre-flop, and raises to 500. Since it is a full table, and the raise is from first position, when it comes around to you in the big blind (everyone folds, including the small blinds), you just call. The pot is now 1050

The flop comes Q 5 2, two diamonds. You check, and your opponent bets 300. Do you call?

The answer is yes. The odds against catching your flush are around 4 to 1 ( a little more), but your opponent is now offering you the shot at a pot of 1350 for 300, which is MORE than 4 to 1 pot odds. Now, sometimes the opponent will catch four of a kind, or a full house, but mostly when you catch your flush you will take the pot, and will win at least one more bet. So, it is an easy call.

This brings in the concept of hand protection. If you have top pair after the flop, and there are three players in the hand, it is likely you have the best hand, but if you check, people will draw out on you. Three hands drawing is two hands too many!!! So, you must bet a significant percentage of the pot (more than 3/4 of the current pot) in order to drive out the other players. In this case, perhaps an overbet of the pot is warranted, for instanct, if the pot is 1000, bet 1200-1400!! The idea is to deny the odds to the players involved.

You want to have a caller, but if you can take the hand down now, you've won a pot you could've lost later. Good players take advantage of that.

And if all three players call you, and one catches a straight, and the other one a flush??? Well, that's poker. You did your job, denying the proper odds, and they caught some luck. Cest la vie.

On a side note, the bigger the advantage, and less volatile the board, the less you can bet. For instance, a pot of 1200, and you have QQ, flop comes Q 7 2, with all three suits different. Check, or bet a small amount. You absolutely WANT callers here, because THEY DON"T HAVE THE ODDS ANYWAY.

Hope this helps,

-Zak

Czuch:

I think Universal Eyes and Czuch, you are missing the point of Nothingnesses post. Now, it's likely that by using "Never" he is being too strict, but the point is this: If you always play against the odds, SOMETIMES you will win. MOST OF THE TIME, you will lose.

So, breaking down his hand analysis into a hypothetical situation, let's say you're in a hand, and you're opponent has a pair of Aces. You have a shot at a backdoor flush. (Two Diamonds must come in a row to make a flush). He goes all-in. Do you call??

Now, 1 in about 16 times, you will make your flush. Some of the other times, you will catch two pair. But MOST OF THE TIME, you will lose. That makes this a losing play, and in the long run, making such calls will lose you money.

I made the situation more drastic to illustrate the point (I think) Nothingness was making. If you always play against the odds, you will lose money. If you always play the odds, you will win money.

The tough part comes in not knowing exactly what the odds are!!!!! Some nice guesswork tends to help out nicely, but there I cannot help you...

-Zak

Vikings: What conversation are you talking about? The trading??

I would give up the whole 100K for a paid membership!!

(1 year knight or 6 month rook, of course...)

Then I'd get you another 100K... ;-)

If we had a "Show Hand" feature, that would bring up another achievement: "Nasty BLUFF".

The requirements would be to win a pot of more than 1000, have the person fold the winning hand, then they must show the winning hand, then you must show a hand lower than Ace High.

It should we worth 3000 points.

Fencer: There are three scenarios Puupia is reffering too.

Case 1: Unable to go All-In mid-hand - In this scenario, if someone is in the middle of the hand he is unable to go all-in if he holds less than the Big Blind in his stack. This prevents players from making that little bit of extra money when they hit their hand after betting has dwindled their stack size. Their bet will mostly be called, so when someone gets a monster hand, they'll be slightly miffed that they can't go all-in.

Case 2: Cash Games - In this scenario, a person sitting at the table who has lost most of their chips still has an all-in move available pre-flop (For instance, in 100/200 blinds a person with 190 chips can sit around for one round waiting for a good hand, then try and triple up). In this instance, the person would be well advised to get out with their remaining chips, as any all-in move holds absolutely no clout and they will most likely lose their chips. BUT, that decision could be left up to them.

Case 2: Tournament Play - When tournaments come into play, this will become a VERY big problem, as someone with less chips than the big blind is by the rules of tournament Hold-'Em STILL a part of the tournament, and their chips are still in play. In the situation where someone is kicked out, we have two breaches of the rules. First, they have been unfairly eliminated, as by the rules they are still in the game (albeit with a very slim chance of winning). Second, their chips are still in play, and if that 1000 in chips (Assuming 1000/2000 blinds, not uncommon at the end of extremely long tournaments) is taken out of the tournament, it becomes unfair not only to the player eliminated, but to those remaining in the tournament, as they are deprived of precious opportunities to improve their stack size with very little risk.

I hope this clarifies things, and as an aside I would like to say that I think your poker implementation is very good, especially for a first attempt on this site not only for a game different than a board game, but also for a live play event. We all understand your efforts, and though it is not often expressed, your work is very much appreciated.

-Zak Smith

I've had the same thing happen to me, although I can't remember the exact incident. The Community Cards stayed the same, then the turn card changed, and after that the river card stayed the same is how I think it went.

I checked it down... ;-)

One thing about the Limit Tables, very soon now they will be unprofitable for players with higher chip stacks. Can we get a table with limits of 50/100, and stacks of 10000-20000?

Czuch: Yes, that's all well and good, but you're forgetting the turn and river, which will naturally be A, A.

Thank you, I'm here all week.

And if you could get me AA when Czuch has KK, that would be great.

One thing I would like to see are tables where the buy-in can be 100 times the blinds added together. It is the way they allow it in most No-Limit Hold 'em Cash games, and allows for more strategic play, as you can now sit back and wait for good chances to double up. 10-20 is outside the range by letting you have 1000 chips to start, while the 100-200 tables are going to be slugfests, as any contested pot will be almost an all-in!!!! (For instance, when the blinds are 100-200, and there are 3 callers, the pot is now 900, and you are on the button. You have A A. What can you bet so that most people will fold their hands, hopefully leaving you heads up against one player? At least 2000 chips! Then you are most likely all-in post-flop if you have a hand. Not very strategic, no room for good moves.)

-Zak

P.S.

Of course, if you have A A, who needs good moves with a hand like that???

The way to fix anyone who wants to sit out during S/B Blind, then sit back in, is to cause ANYONE who is sitting at the table to either post the blind once, or wait until the Big Blind comes up. That way they have to pay to play, no matter what. It's what they do in the larger, real money sites.