Vikings: Everyone knows about using your left hand!

It was this bit: "its what you are wanting, when someone can't move, you can go ahead and go again". I know what it says now but it took some effort. Part of the confusion is that "you" would be ajtgirl who has been talking about when she can't move. Your sentence switched viewpoints and "you can go ahead and go again" didn't make sense as "you" is stuck.

playBunny: what part don't you understand? the part about using a random roll generator or using your left hand on your mouse?

ajtgirl: Vikings tried to explain but I didn't understand what he said either, lol - have to read it a few times.

Automatic passing (Auto-pass) means that you don't have to roll the dice when you're stuck on the bar against a closed table or in any position where there's no point rolling the dice. You skip your turn and the opponent goes again. I reckon that idea sounds familiar to you, eh?

Many, many people have asked for this. Many more would like it but haven't asked for it. Beyond them there are many more who haven't thought about it but who would say "That's a good idea" if they were told. There are probably a few going the other way; players who like rolling the dice when they can't move, but aren't there always, lol.

As I understand it, it would require huge changes in the code that plays games, so there's one person who really, really doesn't like the idea of auto-pass.

ajtgirl: since most people use their right hand on their mouse, try using your left hand the next time you are in that situation then you will have your odds back

Vikings:
Sorry Viking that I can't get through my point. I'm gonna sleep on it now
GN

ajtgirl: If you're rolling real dice, do you believe that the odds change every time you roll them? If you roll a 6-6 with real dice does that reduce the odds of rolling 6-6 on the next go?

frolind:
But you are forced to roll the dice even though you can't go anywhere.
To me it is pointless and whatever you gentlemen say, it does change the odds of the dice rolls.

ajtgirl: its what you are wanting, when someone can't move, you can go ahaid and go again

Pedro Martínez:
I liked you as a Met, or were you a Yankee?
The odds must change with every throw of the dice, or else there would be no odds.
Being philisophical now

ajtgirl: I touch them all the time. And sometimes I roll them too if I'm having a dim moment. And it is not against the tournament rules. I just pick them up, a little bit embarrassed. And it does not alter the outcome of future rolls.

ajtgirl: 1. What happens in real life, on other sites or anywhere else is not relevant.
2. The odds DON'T change with every throw of the dice.

Vikings:
Geees, why didn't you just tell me this earlier?

What the heck is auto-pass?

ajtgirl: because fencer does not want auto-pass, and I wouldn't ask for it if I were you, it has been asked for before and is a sore subject. Being new here, you wouldn't have known that

Vikings:
But why should we have to roll when we can't move anyway? That is the basic question I propose to you. In real life tournaments, correct me if I am wrong, players who are barred out do not even get to TOUCH the dice until there is an opening in their opponents home board.

ajtgirl: your roll is determined by what time you click on your turn,what number someone else rolls has ablolutely nothing to do with is

frolind:
The odds change with every throw of the dice. There are only so many times one can get a 6-6, or a 5-5, or a double anything in one game. I think the odds are that any combination of dice thrown will be equivalent to a 7, but we all know that backgammon, winning at backgammon, can turn on the doubles. So when a player has to throw the dice and cannot move anyway...IT CHANGES THE ODDS!

ajtgirl: I understand what you are saying, but I disagree that the odds are changed.

frolind:
But the fact that one has to roll the dice here when barred out CHANGES the odds. In real life, a player does not roll the dice if he is barred out. That's what I am talking about.

frolind: agreed

Vikings: I have no idea, but whichever method is used it's purpose is to deliver 2 random numbers from 1 to 6 per dice roll. :)

frolind: aren't they determend by a random generator based on a time sequence?

ajtgirl: The number of doubles you roll when closed out does not affect the possibility of doubles later in the game. The dice does NOT try to make a fair amount of doubles which you risk using up on the bar, it simply gives you two random numbers from 1 to 6 whenever you need it.

ajtgirl: the dice are determend by random, what your opponent rolls is irrelevant

frolind:
If one is due for doubles, which happens all the time, and they throw them when they are on the bar, the roll is useless and reduces the odds of them occuring again at a favorable point in the game. I am not a technician. I just like to play and have noticed this glitch for some time.

What do you think?

ajtgirl: The fact that we have to roll here under those conditions absolutlely changes the odds in the game

How?

Andersp:
I agree Andersp This issue has been a thorn in my paw on every game site...but every game site seems to do it. If you were playing live with a live person across the board you would not roll. No one does live. The fact that we have to roll here under those conditions absolutlely changes the odds in the game...to what extent I can't say. But it just bothers me

I am talking about having to roll when you are on the bar and the home field is full by your opponent. Irrelevant of the doubling cube.

grenv: 'Drop' makes loads of sense and it's well established as part of Backgammon terminology, but I take your point. Once you've got used to the words, whatever they are, it's second nature and you can't see what the fuss is about. I'm still cautious with these BK buttons, don't want to go the wrong way, but I'll get there, as will Rose and everyone else... I suspect that I'll eventually not go to the word but will learn that left is take/continue and right is drop.

At Vog the words "Take" and "Drop" are used. perhaps because they are short and fit onto the board in the area that's provided. When playing GnuBg I don't read the words (Accept and Decline) as they're are rather small on my monitor, but hit the green tick or the red cross as appropriate. I think such icons would go nicely with the indistinguishable grey buttons here.

Why not change "check" to "I can take your king next turn"?
They could at least spell it properly - cheque.

playBunny: Accept and Reject is what I've used my whole backgammon life. Drop doesn't make sense.
Why not change "check" to "I can take your king next turn" ?

Rose: I think the wording should be changed, with "Drop" instead of "Reject". It's much harder to misunderstand as it works for both the cube and the game. Drop one you've dropped the other. And "Continue" would perhaps be better than "Accept" (although the usual term is "Take").

playBunny: I never meant to imply that psychological factors are irrelevant :o)

alanback: "there's no bluffing in backgammon (it's a "perfect information" game)."

It may be perfect information in the game theory sense but bluffing is most certainly an option because backgammon is rarely a perfect opponent game. Grenv's example below illustrates this. An opponent who accepts a cube offered in order to terminate the game and who then redoubles? That was not a bluff but it shows how a cube can be taken under the wrong circumstances. The converse is also possible. The weaker player knows they're up against someone much stronger and drops the cube as soon as it appears even though it was offered too early (ie, a bluff).

Another form of bluff, perhaps, is the offering of a blot when you know that hitting it will likely cause the opponent more trouble than letting it go. I've been on all four sides of that one, lol.

alanback: Apparently you are correct in your assertion. I found a number of sources calling Backgammon a perfect information game. Perfect information games are divided into two categories. Those with no luck in them, which are called predeterministic, and those with luck in them, which are called either non-predeterministic or stochastic.

The definition seems to be if you can see every move made in the game and know where every game piece is and what they can do, the game is a perfect information game.

Thank you for making me learn something today. :) Now I know.

grenv: In any case, we all have "perfect information" about the game of backgammon, we're just discussing labels

alanback: I think it is perfect information. I know exactly where everything is as well as all future possible outcomes and their probabilities.

Walter Montego: See also http://www.thegamesjournal.com/articles/DefiningtheAbstract.shtml (backgammon is a perfect information game, but not an "abstract strategy" game due to the random element); http://www.boardgamegeek.com/geeklist.php3?action=view&listid=9930 (confusion between perfect information and complete information)

Walter Montego: Arguably backgammon is not a game of "complete information" as defined at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complete_information; however, that definition may be broad enough to include games where all the possibilities are known, even though the outcome depends upon a random element.

Walter Montego: Backgammon appears to satisfy the definition of a "perfect informatio n game" at http://www.gametheory.net/dictionary/PerfectInformation.html. Of course, your point is valid that there are unknowns in the future, but the definition focuses on information about moves that have already been made.

alanback: I disagree with your assertion that Backgammon is a perfect information game. There are unknowns in it and that means that it isn't a perfect information game. Chess or Checkers are perfect information games. Dark Chess is usually not. As for whether or not one might be able to bluff in Backgammon, even with the cube in play, I don't see a way for that to be done. You either go for it, or you don't. It is true that your opponent can see the whole game, but he doesn't know what the dice will roll and lacks information on exactly what the coming rolls will be. A player may take an anti-percentage stance, but that's not the same thing as bluffing.

Marfitalu: Yes, and there's no bluffing in backgammon (it's a "perfect information" game). My point was that the mechanics of doubling can be compared to a raise in poker: The other player must agree to play the game at the higher stakes, or drop and forfeit the current stakes.

BIG BAD WOLF: In a way it's like poker, but every raise doubles the stakes.

Rose: For cube beginners, I like to think of a person who doubles as saying "Hey, I think I can win the game - would you like to make the game worth twice as much?"

Then the opponenet can then either say (Accept) "I think I still have a good chance to win also, sure lets make the game worth twice as much and continue to play.

or the opponenet can say (reject) "I think you are right and will win the game also. I will give you this game and lets move on to the next" (with the value of the game at the cube value before the double offer)

At least that is the basics of it. As you play, there are many other little tips and tricks which will help as you play on. (Like if you think you are going to win with a gammon/backgammon, you should not double - or if it is past the crawford round and your opponent is 1 point away you should always double right away, etc..... things which will help your game, but not as important to learn how to start using the cube.)

BIG BAD WOLF: Yes, this can easily happen. And also when your opponent has still a backward man blocked by six consecutive squares. Then the fact of not being able to move is an advantage, and you just have to wait for your opponent to break his board, so you will almost always win. So in that situation the only reason not to double would be to try for a gammon.

Hrqls: Like Hrqls - there might be a time like the 1 piece you have on the bar is your very last piece on the board, and you even though no dice roll will help you, you may still double since you think you can break lose and move your pieces around the board before your opponenet can get all their pieces in. At least I would probable double if I was in that situation.

Andersp: lol :)

grenv: Is that feature called "opposite autopass"

Andersp: It's not a bug, it's a feature!

Andersp: the question isnt if you would want to roll the dice ... but if you want to double . if you are stuck on the bar you might still want to double ... just to scare your opponent i guess ;)

In fact I've seen some very strange behaviour.

I doubled one opponent when I had only a few pieces left and he still hadn't borne any off (but there was no way I could gammon him, before anyone asks).

Not only did he accept but doubled me right back next turn to make it an 8 point game (in a 7 point match). Of course I won easily.

I urge people to read and understand the rules. Ask for clarification here if necessary.

Is it a bug that forces us to roll dice even if we are trapped in the bar and the whole "home" is blocked? Doesnt make sense to me to roll the dice when no diceroll can help me out.