Walter Montego:
Why not General Chat? General Chat means just that, General Chat. It is silly if you can,t talk in general about programs, games and cheating, a case of over moderating on the moderators part? Oh! Forgive me you are not a moderater then what is the problem?

for an Electronics Discussion Board, like
"Video HiFi Console" - share your experiences with
home/car/trek equipment, or look out for tips on it ... . ~*~

MidnightMcMedic: Lost? Yeah, right.

I will follow reza to the BrainKing.com discussion board if the subject is picked up there. It would seem to be the more matching board for the subject. Aside from playing games where a computer can't help, I doubt anything can be done to resolve the problem of people using outside help to make their moves, especially on a turn based site where one can let the computer run for days before spitting out a move to make. But you never know, someone might have some ideas for it and the requests will be made.

One possible solution is to embrace it, instead of fighting and rejecting it. Allow it completely and then it is no longer a problem at all. Since you can then just assume all opponents are doing it, it won't matter to you if you choose not to use a program or get someone to help with your moves. This can be thought of as a request to change the user agreement to not say it isn't allowed. Since it can't be enforced, why not just allow it and be done with it? Tournament creators could still put in the titles that they would like or not like computers to help and we wouldn't have to hear people complain about "cheating" of this type any more.
A policy like this would also incourage tournaments made for programs to compete against each other and this would strengthen this site amoungst those that are into programs and computers. I personally don't mind playing against machines if I know in advance that my opponent will be a machine or that my opponent will have a machine help with his moves. I'm not the strongest Janus Chess player on this site, but I have defeated Sumerian's Smirf program 5 times in the 19 games that we've played. Since it is a machine, it doesn't mind playing the game out past where most people would have resigned and this has helped me learn to play the game better without tiring, boring, or insulting a human opponent.

Walter Montego: But other requests would be lost, so please take it to Brainking.cm board then. Thank you

MidnightMcMedic: Not General Chat. Perhaps the BrainKing.com board? This certainly is a subject that affects a lot of the games played here. I hadn't even thought it possible to have Backgammon included in it as I thought it was the one game that could not have computer help. Hacking is possible, but luck of the dice is just the breaks and explains a lot of things in it. Dark Chess is about the only Chess type game that computers don't play good or aren't used. All the rest of them could have computer or other people's help and there's really not much that can be done about it. Sumerian is open about it, plus his program is different. It plays like a person and makes up its moves and wings it, instead like a lot of programs that have vast data bases and tables and check the moves before thinking up a move on their own.
This board is also not a bad place to discuss, since dealing with the "problem" could lead to a feature request to solve it.

How about General Chat?

rod03801: Which board do you exactly mean Rod? tell me and I'll post my answer to Sumerian there :-)

Please move the program/cheating conversation to a more appropriate board..
Thanks, all..
:-)

Ryan from Ohio:Yeah i wish there were but they have that gaom on its your turn its called jamble

Sumerian: unless the creator of the tournament is Fencer...it does not over-ride the user agreement,IMO.
Would you be allowed to use your program in an OTB tournament?
I commend you on being fourthright in your use of your program....but is it fair to the other participants who do not use one?

Sumerian: nice... and well put.

Is your program available for download??

Sumerian: I really don't see that as any kind of cheating as long as everybody KNOWS they are playing against a progam. Some may even want to.

to reza: I am surprised finding me being a subject of a cheating discussion here. Why not simply ask me directly?

a) Before participating in a tournament I am asking its creator under which conditions I would be welcomed or not. If not accepted I am simply not participating. Concerning the most actual GC tournament I have been explicitly invited.
b) If I would use the assistance of my unready and still error containing growing Smirf engine, it is merely a form of organizing my own experiences. Others will use databases of their commented game notations, books or take help from third persons or use unmentioned bought programs. But instead I am relying simply only on MY OWN means.
c) It is no secret what I am doing. I have it openly documented in my profile, that I will mostly be testing a self written engine.
d) Moreover I am mostly waiting to be invited for to play a game, thinking the invitor will have seen and read my profile.

What more can I do than to make those details open and clear for everybody instead of preferring a secret use?

There was a discussion some time ago - not sure whether it was here, or on "tournaments", so I'll post it on both) about having a tournament option with no vacation days and no automatic vacations. Has there been any progress on making this an option? It would certainly eliminate a lot of the gripes, and those of us who like to play a few fast games would not be frustrated with long tedious boring dull tournaments (especially hyperbackgammn!) which go on for weeks and weeks, when 90% of the games are finished in a couple of days

harley: true harley,but sometimes a subject does touch on other issues..anyway,as you say ,back to the subject.do you know,beyond "Features in development (sorted by priority): "...do you know if any games in being considered?

my opinion on cheating:
I KNOW,as I'm sure that anyone with even moderate intelligence & a sinew of moral fiber knows.that cheating is a hollow victory.used a computer as a player(as some sites do)should nor be allowed.it is the act of someone emotionally immature or troubled who has a need to win at all costs.it is usually a sign of something lacking in character.or an emotional problem.
what I know about cheating:
I heard about cheating programs a while ago,did I few searches.there are cheating programs for just about any game you can think of,if one needs them.
their are also in development programs (some beta versions are in use on a few sites)that detect cheating programs being used on a computer.
what bugs me about the subject:
I play scrabble english,french & am learning dutch.
I dont usually "blow my own horn",but I have played a lot,WITHOUT needing to cheat,and am a reasonably good player.what bugs me is that if you beat someone good,especially if you beat someone with a really sad vocabulary.immediately,they are convinced that you must be cheating.

It's his own program, so that's part of his brain.

No worries!

I swear your post was before I posted my post1 I didn't see that. sorry!

grenv: I totally think that he shouldn't have been allowed to take part in this tournament and as you can simplly check, he has at least won the $50 prize for winning all participants in his group. Even in chess it is hard to see 7 moves ahead let alone in Gothic with those two extra pieces and the extra pawns. So as a matter of fact that man has had a big advantage over others. Yes I hereby admit that I have never played someone as strong as Mr. Trice neither here in my home nor on the internet but that doesn't mean because he can defeat computers. others can too. In any case, right now I see a moderator comig to me saying . So I leave this right now right here!

This has strayed away from being a feature request. Could it be continued on a more appropriate board please? Thanks!

reza: So apparently any idiot can see 7 moves ahead? I think he was being arrogant. A computer is a computer, the agreement says computers, not "computers that are better than Ed Trice"

redsales: When I first noticed that in his profile, I sent a personal message to EdTrice and told him what I had noticed and he said because the program he is using is able to foresee moves only 7 moves ahead, it doesn't matter! Well, I don't totally agree but that's what the prize giver thinks.

It does matter...as the post below is a ccp of user agreement...It is not allowed on this site

Stevie: i don't think it matters. Sumerian uses a computer to play (in tournaments with $500 US prizes) but no one condemns him..maybe because he admits it openly in his profile?

Game Guidelines:

NO CHEATING. This includes using outside programs to help play and losing on purpose for the goal of boosting ratings. Your account may be banned, and ratings will be removed.

redsales: This is correct. It goes on openly and not so openly.

BIG BAD WOLF: you can cheat at any other game just as easily...chess and checkers world class programs are regularly used on this site already!

Niki: ty for the link to the scrabble fellowship.it is an incentive for me to upgrade my membership so I can join.wanna game of scrabble sometime?

AbigailII: ...ty for the link to Mill borne rules

Maxxina: this is true,there is a word game "upwords" much like scrabble,it is great.you used to be able to play it online.but hasbro owns the rights,and I heard they sic their lawyers at anyone who make a clone of it.

...a word game here would be a great addition here,I think.what say ye all?I love word games myself,I usually play scrabble but have been looking into other word games lately.I found a unique"golem word game" at:
www.littlegolem.net

Well there are other scrabble type games which can be introduced as long as rules are some-what changed, and of course do not call it scrabble - but that would be a game which I would not care to see here just for the fact that it would be WAY to easy for someone to cheat, and WAY to hard to know if they are cheating... or just smart.

Problem with scrabble is license . Its extremly expensive , so scrabble here is utopia

JennyElizabeth: I posted this in reply to AbigailII further down....
they play scrabble in the 'Scrabble Fellowship' here at http://brainking.com/game/ShowFellowship?fid=181 using a scrabble website .. have a look

JennyElizabeth: Not on here but there should be.

is there anything like scrable on here?

pauloaguia:
Well, if the game isn't available at all, you wouldn't be able to play your friend from Japan in any language.

Mill borne rules

AbigailII: I love playing that game!

volant: I 2nd that because I just play whatever game(s) that I have w/o making any type of rudeness an such.

nobleheart:
Yes, I do. I wasn't quite sure about the name. I've played about a million games against the computer - either the curses version (mille is part of the standard BSD games), or the graphical version, xmille. (For X-Windows). I don't know any MS-Windows version - that's an OS I don't do.

But now that I think of it, I don't think this game will play well on BK. It's important to keep track of certain cards, and while this is rather easy to do in a game you play from begin to end, I would find it impossible to keep track of the cards if I have several games going on, each lasting for days. This would be a problem for most card games I think. At least for me.

Partica is a lovely person.. but I think this is really starting to stray off topic.. :-)

nobleheart: At least your vision is not impaired. Welcome to the club. ROTFL

Purple: true,but unfortunately,I can testify that these days,stalking is an equal opportunity employer.recent statistic show that the number of women exibiting abusive,dysfunctional behavior is on the rise.
but my attitude is not negative,there are many clever women,and men,with good karma out there.
I am not alone...lol.
PS yes Partica is a good one,there are many here.
another good thing about brainking.

Mille or Nine Men Morris is a good game...

nobleheart: A super-attractive female like Partica may have experienced a differant set of problems from you and I.

I guess strip poker is out of the question

Partica: I think there are extremes at both ends of the spectum on this subject:
I have seen people who,lacking a "real life on or off line" of there own,"stalk" people online.this of course is creepy & isnt right.
having had a real stalker girl on & off line where I used to work,I know it is no joke.
at the other end of the spectrum,some people are paranoid & almost anti -social & rude in response to any one they dont know inviting them to a game.this to is creepy.
the site should incourage but not inhibit people's ability to socialize & promote a good community feeling.but also,it should not be used by people solely to "matchmake".
were to draw the line,or how to do so is a complex question.
fortunately,here at brainking,I have not experienced much of those at either end of the spectrum.exept once,a long time ago,when a newbie.I invited someone to play & was immediately blocked without explanation..fine..life goes on...lol.

especially if he can gamble on card games and win the money for a new server

I consider everything what looks interesting.
Bry: Yes.