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Atrotos: Agreed. In the Introduction to Popular Chess Variants, D.B. Pritchard wrote: "All the usual rules, but you also win if you check your opponent three times."
Chaosu:The question is about 3 Checks Chess, I presume? I disagree with you: I think that your first priority in any move you make is to escape check (if you have been placed in check and can do so). Just as in standard chess.
Your new variant would allow both kings to be in check simultaneously...and might even allow you to ignore the fact that you've been mated, in order to deliver a 3rd check. Do you think that *those* possibilities are good ideas?
grenv: I'd still like to hear your answer to this question: to which position do you apply the test for mate? Is it (my contention) to the position at the end of move 40--before the ice age? Or is it to the position after the ice age adjustments--with White about to make move 41? It's a clear question, I think...and crucial.
If you claim that the ice age adjustments between moves 40 and 41 must be taken into account, note those same ice age adjustments could iinclude a black king's being frozen to death at the same time that white's king is mated. Or you'd be stuck claiming that you only consider the ice age consequences for some purposes that you choose, while ignoring other consequences of that identical event.
grenv: "point 1... Move 40 is defined as being different in the rules... assuming that it should behave the same is plainly wrong."
Plainly (please read for yourself), there is no such definition of moves 20, 40, etc., being inherently "different". But by rule something special does happen after each of those moves (assuming, of course, that the game does not actually end on any of those moves.) I do hope you agree that a game can be ended by a black move 20, 40, etc.
"point 2... Actually my sequence is the same as yours, I just have a different definition of checkmate... my definition is; "if the white king is in check and cannot legally move out of check on his next move, then he is checkmated." "
Checkmate ends a game. There is no "next move". Plainly, the mating move is the last move of a game. So any definition that demands a reference to a "next move" must be doing so in a hypothetical way, as it refers to something counterfactual--it will not occur. In my opinion, it's better to avoid that in a definition if that can reasonably be done.
Your definition appears to be: "if the white king is in check and could not legally move out of check next move in an identical situation in a different variant, then he is checkmated"
Plainly not. My test for mate after Black's move 40 would be the same as the test applied after moves 21 through 39. I think that would be the same evaluation applied in conventional chess.
And please tell me when you perform the test for mate: before the ice age?
grenv: I think that the crux of our disagreement is this: when does a test for mate occur? I contend that a move that would--in a given position--suffice to produce mate on any move numbered 21 through 39, would also produce mate on move 40.
I think the move 40 sequence is: (1) black plays a move, (2) one tests for mate, (3) if not mate, an ice age occurs, (4) one tests for frozen king(s). I think your move 40 sequence is: (1) black plays a move, (2) an ice age occurs, (3) one tests for mate or frozen kings.
In your sequence only, it has become simultaneously possible for the white king to be mated and for the black king to be frozen--yet another situation not mentioned in the game description at chessvariants.org
kleineme: I'd be much more inclined to ask the game's inventor (or leading players, if the inventor is not available), rather than basing anything on the actual implementation here at BK. There are things here that could stand improvement.
I'm a variant lover but not an ice age player, so feel free to discount my opinion. But I'd much rather see the rules of what constitutes "mate" remaining consistent throughout the game, no matter what the current move number happens to be. Let a move be completed before an ice age occurs.
The "taking the king" argument leads one astray. If you follow that "logic", a king could move into some checks, secure in the knowledge that an ice age was about to save him. I'm sure we don't want that.
Herlock Sholmes: Some people simply cannot conceive or speak of conventional Western chess as being a variant (admittedly, far and away the most popular chess variant).
To me, it seems similar to the way that many people adamantly refuse to categorize alcohol as drug, or to conceive of humans as primates. The list goes on and on...
ChessVariant: I'm not sure how good computers would be in the opening. It seems to me that the branching factor would be a computational hurdle. But I know I wouldn't care to play against them from the middle-game on, when they could "see" everything through to the finish.
I'm sure I've said this here before: I'm a huge fan of progressive chess, and have had the chance to play some of the world's best. If we were ever to add progressive as a variant here at BK, I'd love to see a Chess960 (fisherrandom) version available--possibly in addition to a variant that begins from the standard chess starting position. It would make it possible for more original analysis.
From the standard starting position, progressive is a great variant for people completely new to it, or to those who are learning the tactics and mating patterns of conventional chess. But specialists in progressive variants would probably appreciate the chance to break new ground from move 1.
mangue: I admit to having a particular fondness for defensive play and for endgames in nearly all variants. Variants in which those are less frequently seen, or which call for no skill in those areas are less appealing to me. I consider the thematic Dice Chess Nc3-Nb5-Nxc7-Nxe8 (and mirror image for Black) maneuver to be a blemish in the game itself. In my experience, it's only executed in about 5% of games, but is threatened in perhaps 25%. It reminds me of the scholar's mate in chess: fascinating to beginners, but a horrifying thing for a knowledgeable kibitzer to behold.
I'm also not thrilled by compulsory king moves in the single-die version, although one can adjust one's play to account for it, both offensively and defensively. Two-dice versions typically don't suffer from this defect; dice rolls alone cannot compel a king move, in versions I know of.
As usual, I'm playing way too much Dice Chess here. Yes, it's making my head spin!
And lately I've taken up Backgammon here as well, and now I'm beginning to think that Dice Chess would be pretty cool if matches could include the use of a doubling cube.
It's just a half-baked notion, and not at all a serious request.
nabla: It looks to me as though nothing short of K+Q vs K would be sufficient to force mate in the Compromise variant; K+N+B, K+B+B, even K+R (surprisingly?) can't get the job done.
K+P vs K endings are different, too. The "winning" side needs to have at least 2 pawns (and those must be on different files) to force a win.
Sorry to get so deep into the weeds here, but I find this stuff fascinating. :)
nabla: For Compromise Chess, I had never heard of your "forced move ends the game" rule option, until you mentioned it. I would still prefer the "forced moves must be played without compromise" option, for two reasons: (1) it was what the game's inventor specified, and (2) my admitted personal bias in favor of endgames, and the way endgame theory changes in specific variants. I'm afraid that in the "forced move ends the game" version of Compromise, very few endgames would ever be reached--we would virtually lose an entire phase of the game, for no good reason that I am able to see.
mangue: Move-and-a-Half Chess sounds very promising to me. I'd love to playtest it first, to see whether the bonus values that I mentioned give a good balance between White and Black wins. If it generates good complex play and yields about 50/50 results, I could see asking for it to be supported here. It reminds me of Three Checks Chess, with its wonderful imbalances between force+development vs. the number of checks delivered. Plus it could have some great mating threats and sequences like those seen in Progressive Chess.
I'm interested in playing/testing a couple of variants that aren't available at BK: Compromise Chess and Move-and-a-Half Chess.
We could play Compromise Chess here by means of unrated games of standard Chess, coupled with the use of BK messages for "compromising". Checks and piece movement are as in normal chess, except that: --Whenever only one legal move is possible, it is to be made without any "compromising" --Otherwise, the player to move must propose two legal candidate moves; the opponent then chooses which of these two moves shall actually be played --A pawn possibly promoting to a different piece should be considered a different move candidate (for example, in a position where e7-e8 is legal, e8=Q and e8=R could be put forward as a legal pair of candidate moves) --Win by making a move that produces a standard chess mating position, or by proposing a pair of legal moves--both of which are standard mates.
Move-and-a-Half Chess would have to be played via BK messages or email, as no variant here would allow us to mimic move sequences. (A computer-supported version of this variant would be ideal, because of the additional move accounting requirements.)
Move-and-a-Half Chess [rules and remarks from The Chess Variant Pages] --Each turn, each player gets enough gas to make 1.5 moves. --Each turn, each player must make at least one move. --If you only make one move, you get credit for half a move. --Each turn, each player may make as many moves as he can afford. --Check must be respected, and your first move of a turn must get you out of check. --The very first turn of the game, White gets only enough gas for one move. --[not stated on the Pages, but I presume that if a player makes a sequence of moves, only the last of them can be a checking move, as in rules for progressive chess variants]
Remarks on Move-and-a-Half Chess --This could be the best game of all. [the author may only have been speaking about Doublemove variants--wetware] --The primary strategic tension here is between saving and spending. If you save up enough gas to make ten moves in one turn, surely you can checkmate; but in the meantime, your opponent might be able to win by making a few extra moves here, a few there. --How embarassing it would be to get checkmated with 8 moves in the bank! --I think that the average game will be 20 moves or fewer.
If we play Move-and-a-Half Chess, I'd suggest mentioning your accumulated move total with every move (sequence) made.
I'd be happy to play 4-6 games with both of these variants, at any one time. And 3-5 days per move max, please.
Message me if you're interested. I've played Compromise Chess, but never heard of Move-and-a-Half Chess until today.
With all the interest in Ambiguous Chess, I'm beginning to wonder whether anyone else here would like to see Compromise Chess added. It seems to me to be a close cousin (or maybe just an older aunt or uncle) of Ambiguous Chess.
Rules summary: player to move proffers 2 candidate moves (except in cases of forced moves--which are directly made); the other player decides which of the 2 candidate moves is actually played. Where things get really interesting: captures and responses to them. :)
(hide) Tired of placing boats or Espionage pieces at the begining of the game? You can go to Game Editors and save some of your favourite positions for future use. (pauloaguia) (show all tips)