BrainKing - Discussion boards (Espionage)

Subject: Re: KBN vs K

Nothingness:
There are players rated less than expert that know how to win efficiently with KBN vs K advantage, but I don't know about c-class. The rule is not for the rating level but for the skill in advancing the position. If a player of whatever ranking cannot advance the position, a draw is an appropriate outcome.

29. September 2011, 22:10:36

i was unable to finish my last post before my battery ran out. The problem with chess is in a K+B+N vs K is that the rule is basically setup that can a C class player draw a master level player..or something to that effect. Yes having advanced players look at this would be the best idea. im playing Sandoz in small variation now, and am trying this forced draw setup.. so far it is working. 1 game i was able to eliminate all 3 sabs very early. the next game i have dug in very well and can just sit and wait for a mistaken attack. and eventually get a large lead and still not attack. the ultimate goal.

29. September 2011, 22:05:07

Subject: Re: Experimenting

Dark Prince: This is an excellent idea but with the small variation of espionage there are certain setups that are UNBEATABLE. Luckily te random volcano feature prevents you from getting this unbeatble setup applied everytime. This was the case at IYT. Ialwayswinsam and myself had a setup that was unbeatable and caused us to have games last well into the 300 move range without a capture..ugghh

16. September 2011, 22:03:24

lukulus

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K+B+N vs K needs 37 moves to checkmate.And if you know mechanism, it shouldnt be so hard.

16. September 2011, 19:27:52

Subject: Re: Playing for a Draw

cookie monster:
In chess, a player with a material disadvantage may play for a draw rather than resigning (a draw is better than a loss). With the 50-move rule, it is up to the player with the material advantage to advance the position (a win is better than a draw). It's a good idea in an inferior (unlikely winnable) position to play for a draw. That outcome is more reasonably attainable with a draw rule.
K+B+N vs K endgames (in which the B & N aren't in a trap position where one can't avoid capture) are winnable in less than 50 moves by a skilled player.

If by "arbitrary" you mean 50 moves instead of 46 or 53, I agree. Otherwise, based on the things I've read about the history of the rule, I don't think the rule is arbitrary. I think it was well thought out. It takes into account the standard mates and a margin of error for accomplishing them as well as the moves for pawn advancement/promotion and captures.

There is already a 50-move precedent for an Espionage draw rule (35 for the small board variations). Deviating from that precedent is arbitrary if not capricious.

9. September 2011, 14:21:33

cookie monster

Subject: Re: Experimenting

Dark Prince:

I suspect, though I do not, that the 50 move rule in chess was arbitrary. I believe it was later discovered that there are certain positions arising in K+B+N vs K endgames where a forced win exists that takes more than 50 moves to achieve against best play.

Also, this isn't about testing the reasonableness of 50 or 60 turns as a draw threshold; this is about testing Nothingness' claim that he can go 50+ moves at the start of the game without allowing a piece being captured at, presumably, anything less than great risk to his opponent.

I agree with Nothingness that defending is generally an advantageous (if boring) strategy, but I disagree in the level of advantage that it brings. I think he is over-estimating it. I have only played against someone blatantly trying for a draw (or to provoke something reckless by turtling) three times (all against The Limbaugh Express) and none of those games went anywhere near 50 moves without a capture nor left me at any risk afterwards. Could I attack blindly against, say, jonaron without expecting to get the worse of it? Probably not, but the only case where that matters is when I enter a game against jonaron needing a win and he needs a draw (a multigame match or tournament perhaps) so that is a position that we have already put ourselves in by playing decisive games.

The proper way to test that would be, likely to, set up various defensive positions in each game and determine how well they can be attacked without knowing any of the pieces. The 10x10 boards would be more interesting.

In the end, however, it still comes down to whether the attacking player wants to accept the defending players tacit draw offer or to attack and the turn limit rule just makes accepting the implied draw that much easier.

9. September 2011, 10:43:19

Subject: Re: Experimenting

cookie monster:
I surmise that the 50-move draw rule in chess was based on empirical data from games played at the highest level and player input from masters and grandmasters.

No single game or match would have been a reasonable test of the rule. I personally think the best test of such a draw rule for Espionage would be one in which many of the highest level players evaluate a variety of game positions and determine the least number of moves without a capture to advance towards a win for each position. Those positions from which no clear advantage can be consistently developed should be excluded. Even if the advantage is not always in favor of the same side for a given position the result will be included if the position consistently leads to a win.
From the data of these positions, the number of moves without capture to bring the game to a win should tabulated. The maximum number of moves (from the various positions) will not necessarily be the threshold for the draw rule, but likely will be a smaller number. That is, as in chess, though some positions may be winnable, the excessive number of moves to accomplish it with solid play on both sides will justify calling it a draw by rule. Ultimately, the number of moves for the draw rule should be based on what is usually reasonable for top level players.

I decline participating in the test suggested by cookie monster.

8. September 2011, 15:07:34

cookie monster

Subject: Re: Experimenting

Nothingness:

I suggest this test.

A. Pick whichever variant you think provides the most advantage for playing defensively.

B. Challenge Dark Prince

C. Try and go 50 moves without a capture or to force your opponent to make a losing move to avoid it.

If Dark Prince isn't up for it then I'd be happy to play one.

8. September 2011, 00:27:13

Subject: Re: Experimenting

Dark Prince: Those findings will be laughable if it goes the way I will attempt. 50-100 lol funny. no we are talking 200 without a capture.. I'm talking real abuse..

7. September 2011, 04:01:57

Subject: Re: Experimenting

Nothingness:
Extending the 50-move draw rule in chess up to 100 moves for some situations was experimented with for a few years and proposals were made to extend it to a greater number of moves for other situations. The results of those experiments were to reestablish the 50-move rule. Whatever conclusions you or others may come to for a greater number of moves for an Espionage draw rule, there will be those who will conclude that the number of moves should not be increased or that it should be decreased.
As in chess, the purpose of the rule is to keep the game advancing towards conclusion.

7. September 2011, 01:29:10

I will be experimenting with the draw rule during this new masters tourney that started this week. I will be trying to flaw the rule to see how it works.

2. September 2011, 19:16:34

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Subject: Espionage Masters I

Last call for players:
Only 3 days left to sign up for a big Espionage-Battle!
Many players already signed up:

Espionage: 7 players
Small Espionage: 11 players
Fast Espionage: 10 players
Open Fast Espionage: 15 players
Small Fast Espionage: 12 players

Espionage Masters I

28. August 2011, 12:43:29

Subject: Re: Espionage Masters I

Celticjim: Howdy, that's great! :-)

28. August 2011, 09:19:13

Subject: Re: Espionage Masters I

Sandoz: yay-the other tournament ended---Giddy Up!!

26. August 2011, 15:37:41

Subject: Espionage Masters I

Only 10 days left to sign up for a big Espionage-Battle! All variants covered! Many great players taking part.

Espionage Masters I

26. August 2011, 01:32:53

Subject: Re: capturing in notation

Nothingness:
No doubt, that would require a programming change. Altering the notation for that purpose is unnecessary since either player can go to any specific move to look at the capture lists of both players to verify any change to those lists. Additionally, any player has the option of utilizing the "add note" feature to record the most recent move # in which a capture is made and thereafter edit that note when another capture is made.

25. August 2011, 20:58:37

Subject: capturing in notation

I'm not sure if anyone mentioned this, but we probably need to have an "x" added to the notation so that it can be easier to track the move count. Currently we cannot differentiate between a regular and capture moves.

18. August 2011, 16:02:56

Subject: Re: DRAW RULE

Chaos:
I agree with your proposal on the draw rule.

18. August 2011, 15:25:50

Subject: Re:

Chaos: Yes that makes sense, and it would be more clear if it is consistent across the board.

18. August 2011, 15:18:50

Subject: Re:

Nothingness: I think the chances of getting the rule implemented are higher if the rule is simple, clear and same for all variants. If we choose for the 60 moves instead of 50, you also have the 10 moves extra in the beginning.

18. August 2011, 15:08:54

We should probably start to enforce(begin to count) the rule once a potential engagement "can" occur. For example no one can attack for at least 3-4 moves depending upon an opponents response. So we can start counting then. I think someone mentioned starting the counting after a few moves have started.Such as turn 15 or 20. The enemy cannot be engaged until proper reinforcements have been established. The volcano versions make for a more difficult attacking challenge. So perhaps waiting a little bit before starting the count. The open challenge is much easier to attack so a lower start count could be feasible.

18. August 2011, 15:06:40

Subject: Re: DRAW RULE

Dark Prince: 60 moves of non-capture beginning at the start of the game, yes.

18. August 2011, 14:56:20

Subject: Re: DRAW RULE

Chaos:
I agree that the existing stalemate rule is a good one.

Pedro Martínez:
That was just the definition for stalemate that I had put in quotes.

Chaos:
On the number of moves for a draw, I have made proposals indicating a smaller number of moves for the smaller board variations, but 60 moves is better than not having a rule. Will that be from the beginning of the game?

18. August 2011, 14:52:33

cookie monster

Subject: Re: draw rule

Chaos:

I think 50 or 60 turns is fine.

It's never happened in one of my games, but that's only because a draw was agreed to in positions where it would have happened. It's easy to construct a position where it can happen.

18. August 2011, 14:46:49

Pedro Martínez

Subject: Re: stalemate

Dark Prince: OK, I got confused by those quotation marks.

18. August 2011, 14:43:11

Subject: DRAW RULE

Dark Prince: ok, I thought you meant there should be a stalemate rule like in chess (draw). So we don't have to discuss stalemate.

Let's discuss the draw rule: what about my proposal?

18. August 2011, 14:40:28

Subject: Re: stalemate

Pedro Martínez: I copied the below from the rules at the bottom of the page for the 2 move variation of Espionage:

How to finish a game

The game is finished when one of the following conditions is fulfilled:

* A player captures opponent's Headquarters. This player wins the game.
* A player cannot make a legal move. This player loses the game.

18. August 2011, 14:34:37

Pedro Martínez

Subject: Re: stalemate

Dark Prince: Where exactly at BK is that rule written or referred to?

18. August 2011, 14:32:51

Subject: Re: stalemate

Chaos:
There already is a stalemate rule.
Stalemate: "A situation in which further action is blocked; a deadlock."
A player that cannot make a legal move on his or her turn loses.

18. August 2011, 13:37:46

Subject: Re: draw rule

Modified by Chaos (18. August 2011, 14:07:55)

Dark Prince: I guess you misunderstood me. I actually made a proposal to request a draw rule so you could conclude I think it's a good thing to install one. (my point to Nothingness was I don't see the point in reinstalling a committee, I think it's best to go to Fencer if someone doesn't accept the draw, since he can inforce it, my other point to Nothingness was that I don't see other draw situations needing a rule, much less needing a committee).

My question to everyone; is 60 moves ok? Or do we want 50 moves like in chess?

In my opinion there shouldn't be a stalemate rule in espionage; there's no king, no piece with a 'forbidden' move, like in chess. So if you put yourself in a position where you can only be captured or walk into a bomb, you've lost. It's not forbidden in espionage to do either.

18. August 2011, 13:33:30

Subject: Re: draw rule

Chaos:
The frequency of utilizing a rule is not a reasonable measure of whether the rule should exist. In chess, the 50 move rule is rarely used (as a percentage of games played), and the en passant rule is also rarely utilized.
The stalemate rule may come up even less frequently but is a factor that cannot be ignored in tactical considerations.
The 50-move draw rule would serve tactical purposes too in Espionage, i.e. "sh*t or get off the pot."

18. August 2011, 13:28:54

Subject: Re:

Celticjim: Did you write your request directly to Fencer? I always get a fast, friendly and helpful answer.

18. August 2011, 13:20:26

Subject: Re: Espionage Masters I

Sandoz: You could post your tournament on the tournament messageboard as well.

18. August 2011, 13:16:39

Subject: Draw rule, PLEASE REACT

Modified by Chaos (18. August 2011, 13:33:07)

Nothingness: we can ask for a draw rule to be implemented in the espionage rules, and I would be happy to do so as soon as there is a consensus what exactly we want to ask for.

DRAW RULE PROPOSAL: a draw can be asked for after 60 moves of non-capture. (seems a simple and clear rule to me). I would like to hear from you all what you think of this, so I can make the request to Fencer.

A committe only has authority to those who choose to be part of the group listening to this committee, which seems to me to be the people who would already be reasonable. A committee would also have to have a draw rule to apply. How often does the situation occur anyway? I've never had such situation.

18. August 2011, 13:01:58

Subject: Espionage Masters I

Only 19 days left to sign up for a big Espionage-Battle! Now, all variants covered!

Espionage Masters I

18. August 2011, 08:37:47

lukulus

Subject: Re:

Celticjim: I used to be paying member on IYT too years ago. It was a bit strange for me to see start of next round afte end of all groups, but it has also own logic. On IYT was much less tournaments, so may be it was reason.

18. August 2011, 05:30:15

I feel that re-installing a committee would help with any rulings. Such as drawn positions. if the committee can look at a situation and decide that "yes i see winning possibilities for white no you cannot be granted a draw" or no you cannot win in this situation draw" i can agree to this.

17. August 2011, 22:47:26

I shouldn't have to write to him and refuse to do so--I found him ignorant--fair enough english is his second language and I don't speak his tongue but my request to have pictures deleted was hardly a technically challenging one---

On IYT (where I am now a paying member again) the next round of tournament starts when the sections are decided-seems logical

17. August 2011, 21:16:19

lukulus

Subject: Re: Tournament

Celticjim: You didnt advance. Write Fencer and he probably will release you from this tournament and you can sign in.

16. August 2011, 12:48:15

rod03801

Subject: Re:

Celticjim: Your choice. He has done it for hundreds of pawns. (Moved them out of tournaments where they couldn't progress so they could join another)

16. August 2011, 12:00:54

Subject: Re:

Chaos: thx for taking the time to reply Chaos but my previous messages revealed someone who couldn't care less about members much less non-paying players

13. August 2011, 12:33:49

@CelticJim: send a message to Fencer:

Fencer

Fencer is the one in charge. Usually he replies fast. I can't imagine he'll declines your requests.

12. August 2011, 17:16:28

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Chaos -they were simple questions about pictures on my profile that I wanted deleted.No way to delete them and no help from person who answered.Another point that tournament that I am supposedly still in--the outcome is decided--Nothingness wins the section yet everyone must wait for a nothing game to finish between the 2 lowest ranking players.Ridiculous

12. August 2011, 16:52:40

rod03801

Subject: Re: Tournament

Celticjim: Since you can't move on in that tournament, if you write to Fencer, he will make you able to join another one. (At least he always has)

12. August 2011, 13:05:45

Subject: Re: Tournament

Celticjim: What questions did you have? Maybe we can back them up as group so the chance is bigger Fencer will listen to it.

12. August 2011, 12:03:04

Subject: Re: Tournament

Celticjim:

What a pity!

I've just become a paying member.

Giddy up, Jim! ;-)

12. August 2011, 11:49:01

Subject: Re: Tournament

Sandoz: I can't join- that sucks.Says I'm already in a tournament even though my section is lonnnng finished Championship world BK 2011

can I do anything about this.The reason I'm not a member any more is because of complete lack of support for couple questions I had.No more cash from me for BK

12. August 2011, 11:00:45

Subject: Tournament

Modified by Sandoz (12. August 2011, 11:02:21)

I've just discovered a cool tournament. ;-)

Espionage Masters I

29. July 2011, 23:27:51

Subject: Re: penalty

Justaminute:
If it would require a program change, I would agree that the option of removing a mine would not work. I am sure Fencer would answer that if it came to a point that a consensus of players liked that penalty addition. If the consensus were against it, it would be a moot point.

29. July 2011, 19:31:37

Justaminute