Thom27: But there are also drawbacks. One is, of course, the effort to implement it. A second is that the players might get into the habit to submit moves without thorough thinking, maybe usually looking at the situation after delayed submit and think if they should undo. Then they go to another site where delayed submit is not available, and soon make a blunder.

jadarite: You do get this correct. I am replying to someone who has made a suggestion.

It doesn't concern me at all. Your suggestion only perplexes me as I have no idea why anyone would bother conducting lengthy discussions about a suggestion that they know will never come to life. I have a suggestion too: It would help me a lot if Friday came right after Tuesday. Now let's discuss the pros and cons…

I do not know why you care if I “actually” play Shogi, but you are welcome to visit my profile and see for yourself.

jadarite: if it works then it might be the best solution :)

jadarite: please keep it nice .. this board is about brainking, no personal attacks

your question doesnt apply to shogi alone

Hrqls:

So, in other words you support my idea but until it is implemented you are saying the remedy is to do something else which amounts to exactly what I was suggesting.

Pedro Martínez: If I get this correct, you are replying to someone who is making a suggestion. I don't know why it concerns you. Do you actually play shogi?

jadarite: there is the "cancel this move" button

i like the idea of Aganju: save the link as a favorite, click on "cancel this move" and revisit the favorite link later to complete the move for real

jadarite: So if I understand you correctly, you are making suggestions even though you know they are never going to be implemented? Well, good luck then.

No, that's "Move on" not "Move one". Dang these clerical errors. I am doing this to prove a point.

Move on no one. This allows me to stress posts by not being able to correct. :::chuckle:::

jadarite: just as an idea: you can save the page link - after entering your move but before submitting it - in your browser as a shortcut. When you click that link later, the move is visible again.
I'm not saying this is a great solution, but it would work.

jadarite: I think you do not understand or realize that the “1999 design”, as you call it, will stay, regardless of any 2013 suggestions.

Thom27:

Yes, I concur. I didn't need 16 hours in this case, just 5 minutes.

jadarite: I think the delayed submit is a better solution, because it does not necessarily require additional effort. If you enter a draft move, you must eventually come back and submit the move. After entering a move with delayed submit, you may come back and change the move, but you can also leave it and the move will be submitted after the delay time.

I meant it for situations where immediately after submitting you think: "oh wait, what have I done now?". You would be able to undo the move, but you need not to.

One should be able to enter the amount of delay time individually for every move you submit. You might even enter a delay of 16h or so, if you might look again at the move in the evening.

Hrqls: The submit button is the only option. There is no "check back later button".

Pedro Martínez: Useless for 1999 website design. I am trying to suggest 2013 suggestions. I can undo moves easily with babaschess.

jadarite: if that is is just what you want, and your reasons for it, then i suggest to make a habit of checking your move before hitting the submit button .. you can move your move, recheck it, double check it, ..., and then hit submit (or cancel)

Pedro Martínez: nope :)

Can I vote somewhere for the most useless discussion ever seen on BK?

So, it is a shame we can't play that game with intended moves.

I got to correct my posts this way because it won't let me edit.

Hrqls: "is that what you mean ?"

The conclusion is the same, but for a different reason. I agree that your point is also valid which gives this more credence.

You are saying you can rethink the move and I am saying I typed in the wrong move. So I want to edit it. Imagine a writer for a newspaper. The editor comes along before it is published. I want to be able to edit clerical mistakes.

I am not really thinking about the game. I am not pondering other moves. I am not planning ahead. I am just double checking to see if the move I inputted was actually the move I made on my own chess board at home.

I am playing 3 games of Japanese chess now. One is lower level, one is higher level it seems, and the other is probably closer to my level. So, it is a shame we can play that game with intended moves. I don't want to resign because I couldn't correct my move. However, I feel this is a waste.

This opponent and I are a good match. I am more interested in playing a decent game than a game with moves that were not entered in correctly.

If a chess magazine or article put in a wrong move from yesterday's grandmaster tournament, wouldn't an editor come along and correct this mistake when it was found out the move was not actually played?

That's essentially what is happening besides me being a grandmaster, lol. I made a move. Then, I went to the computer and I made a different move.

So, all I want is the option to correct it and reflect the move I actually made on the board before I entered the other one on the computer.

jadarite: ah i now see what you mean ... that would be useful indeed ... often in chess types i think about a move, but cant decide yet before real life kicks in again and drags me away from brainking ... when i finally have time again to get back to brainking i have to restart the thinking, which i might not have to do when they move would have been saved but not submitted

is that what you mean ?

Hrqls: The point is to allow a "draft" mode. When you type a draft email, it is not sent. You can come back to it later. That's ideally what I want. The clock has not stopped ticking, but I have a move I am interested in making. If I am multitasking, I could then come back and double check (no pun intended). If the move is still sound and then I can send it like a draft letter to be sent later. The opponent would never see the proposed draft move. So, it's not like taking back a move.

jadarite: i understand the difference between putting a move into the computer, or playing directly on the computer

there is even a difference between playing on the computer or on a phone. people tend to submit moves faster (without checking) on phones (in my experience)

the question is: suppose there is a undo mechanism here .. in which you can undo a move in about 30 seconds .. would you go back to each game after you submitted the move? in case of the action of going back, you could change that action into checking before submitting the move .. each is an extra action you have to perform, and each can be forgotten as easily

i had to change my gameplay as well: in the past i used the mouse to click on 'cancel this move' when i didnt want ... i especially use that in froglet games in which i view the board as it would be after i made the move, before i submit the move .... i accidently clicked on submit instead of cancel a few times .... after that i am not using the backspace key on my keyboard to go back (and cancel) and use the mouse to submit my move, so i wont accidently use the wrong action (although they are clearly separated on this site i sometimes click too fast :))

jadarite: free accounts have unlimited moves per day, but a limit on how many games they can have going on at the same time ... so if you have a fast opponent, then you can have a lot of moves per day

jadarite: Do not take anything written on this site too seriously. There are many obsolete texts here, as well as just about as many missing ones. And as pointed out by rabbitoid, the One is no longer bothered...

For rook, it states, "The player is not limited by number of started games at once nor number of moves per day nor number of joined tournaments and team tournaments, is limited by 35 vacation days per year."

If we have a free account, we are limited to a number of moves per day? If so, then how many moves does a free member have per day in a game of shogi?

Justaminute: "And the current situation is no different from letting go of your piece completes your move in competitive over the board games."

It is different. In a competitive over the board game, you wouldn't be making moves on a computer like here. If I were playing a competitive over the board game, I would have just moved the piece that I intended to move and WOULD NOT have made a clerical mistake on the computer.

Vikings: Ok, but then posters cannot correct spelling and grammar mistakes. If you create a system that works with the people, then the people will work with the system. You build a system that condemns people from the start, well, you get my drift. Just my 2 cents.

jadarite: that is a privilege for paying members and for a good reason

They don't even allow you edit posts here.

Roberto Silva: "And I'll be blunt: if you submit the move without checking it properly, then you're doing things wrong, and the developer shouldn't have to waste precious time and energy compensating for your own inability to use the game features that are already there."

Spoken like a true computer nerd. This is about playing off the computer. You might not understand this and then simply inputting the move.

If you can't understand the difference between playing a computer and inputting a move on the computer, you have some serious "wrong" thinking.

Anyway, I am not begging for it. I just noticed one game I am playing is a waste because I never intended that move. That fact remains regardless if I put in the correct move now and only use the computer board.

Actually, what would be really useful to some players, is the ability to take back their move after their opponent has moved.

For example, in Artful's case (Artful Dodger vs. Wilhelmina), whenever Wilhelmina sent him back to base, he could undo both Wilhelmina's move and his own and re-roll.

Of course, you would need a cap on the number of undos, say about 30 per game, with the ability to undo any number of moves at any time up to the cap. So if you were being slaughtered at battle boats, on move 29, you could undo 30 moves and restart with a new board. Brilliant I say

jadarite: You can do everything you said already with the current system, where you can click on a move, see the effects it will have on the board position, go away and have dinner if you want, then come back and cancel the move if you don't like it. So long as you don't submit the move before being 100% sure that's what you want, you can do anything you want with the board.

And I'll be blunt: if you submit the move without checking it properly, then you're doing things wrong, and the developer shouldn't have to waste precious time and energy compensating for your own inability to use the game features that are already there.

happyjuggler0: Agreed. And the current situation is no different from letting go of your piece completes your move in competitive over the board games. Irrespective of whether your opponent is looking.

jadarite: I just want to move my piece where it was intended.

No one is stopping you from doing so right now under the current set up. You can wait 3 minutes after making your move before hitting "submit".

To be honest if Fencer was still reading these boards he would say that it is a waste of programming time to make the proposed changes.

I would agree with him too; there are much better ways for him to modify this site for the better than changing the site for the worse because someone has poor impulse control.

Thom27: Same counterargument.

rabbitoid, jadarite: What I mean, might be called "delayed submit": If you click submit, the move is not immediately submitted. It is eventually submitted when the delay time elapsed. During the delay, the opponent (or anyone else) sees the position before the move in question, as it is not yet submitted.

jadarite: My 2 cents:
I see nothing wrong in the concept, under condition that the opponent has not looked at the board. (the system knows). Once the opponent looks at the played move, no undo is possible.
In practice, however, it will be impossible to implement - you'd need a programmer to do that, and the only one available seems to be on extended leave.

Thom27: Sorry, I don't understand, me come in peace.

"jadarite: maybe this revert time is not a bad idea (at least in turn based play with long thinking times). Within 3 minutes after submitting a move, the mover can still take it bak, and it is not yet transmitted to the opponent, to avoid a race condition.

Then there is no irreversible action that may be regretted immediately after it is done, while the delay does not force the user to wait for it. The time can be used as one pleases: either think again or go on and forget it."

I just want to move my piece where it was intended.

jadarite: maybe this revert time is not a bad idea (at least in turn based play with long thinking times). Within 3 minutes after submitting a move, the mover can still take it bak, and it is not yet transmitted to the opponent, to avoid a race condition.

Then there is no irreversible action that may be regretted immediately after it is done, while the delay does not force the user to wait for it. The time can be used as one pleases: either think again or go on and forget it.

Walter Montego: I am trying to adjust my eyes to a real board. So, I have the pieces set up to the position on the computer. If I were planning the moves all online, yea you are right. However, I tell myself "Move knight" then walk to the computer room and move a knight. I don't think about the game during this time. I just move the knight. I am not double checking.

So, a draft idea would simply record the move in private and then I would sign back on to double check.

Think of it like this, you spend 20 minutes or so looking at a position and come to a decision. You get a phone call, so you make this "draft" move. Take the phone call, and the come back to the "draft" mode. Ask yourself, "Do you really want to do this?" Instead of "Did you really want to do this?

It gives you time to double check. I don't think putting 2 or 3 buttons on a page serves this purpose. When I clicked move I didn't realize I moved the wrong knight. I came back after clearing my head and then saw the mistake.

It was a clerical mistake at worst, it had nothing to do with the 20 minutes while I spent considering the other knight. It makes a big difference in the game, not so much in computing.

Anyway, the messages can be private, so perhaps we can have a private option to record moves we are thinking about. We could commit to them later.

jadarite: I do not see the need for this since you can check your move before you enter it. Just make the move, look at the board, and then decide to enter the move. I rarely just click, move, enter. Maybe if the move is forced or something, other wise I check the move before I enter it as I too have been burned by clicking the wrong piece and not realizing it. If I do that, I just live with it. And I am glad we cannot ask our opponent to take the move back. Just imagine the headaches from having that option. The games with hidden information, such as Dark Chess or Battleboats would be trouble. For regular Chess, let's say you take the move back. Nah, I don't like. I grew up playing you could touch and move any piece and put it back as long as you didn't take your hand off of it and this exactly how it is done here. So don't take your hand off the piece!

Backgammon has a warning when resigning a game in match play. This is a good idea for backgammon in match play as some positions can be worth two or three times the game point. The warning will ask if you really want to resign and tell you how many game points the resignation will cost you.

This draft idea, would it mean something like a surrogate board that had the game set up and all moves, but wasn't connected to the actual game? I already use the game in progress for this, but it has the dangers we are discussing. I don't know if I see the need for it. I know some people set up a position on a real board to help them think of moves, but I just look at the screen and think of my moves, or I used to take notes and that works too.

jadarite: I guess what I am looking for is a "draft" mode like in email. You can look at it later but you haven't sent it.

You should be allowed to undo a move if your opponent hasn't responded and it's only like 2 minutes. I was using an board offline and then told myself to move like a knight, where there are 2 of them. I didn't realize I moved the wrong one. I just went to the computer and clicked on the other knight by mistake.

I looked at the board 2 minutes later and realized, "That's the wrong piece!!!".

jadarite: Looks like unchecking, refreshing, and then checking again resets things.

I am not getting email notices when my opponent makes a move. I have it checked in settings.

Pedro Martínez: hahahahaha.....correct

Justaminute: I think the word "life" in your post is quite unnecessary. :)

Bernice: I think Brainking is a great site, but given Fencer's posts that basically amount to "i don't care about Brainking anymore", anyone buying life membership now would need their head examining