I mentioned baptism, simply because it is one of the doctrines that identifies Christianity as opposed to its predecessor, Judaism. Baptism is not unique to Christianity and it does have its origins in the Jewish ritual of Mikveh. Mikveh (literally "collection of water" in Hebrew) was used as a means to purify oneself after different circumstances. such circusmtances were not necessarily sinful. This ritual bathing was and is still used as a means to symbolize a conversion to Judaism. While Judaism did not actively seek converts, it allowed for procedures and rituals for those wanting to convert. Christinaity took the ritual of Mikveh and gave it a different spiritual significance. Baptism became a symbolic purification of a convert to remove Adam's original sin. The convert must accept Jesus Christ as the true savior.

However, baptism is not necessary for being saved by Jesus because Juses had the power to save above and beyond baptism. This is clear in the New Testament since in many cases those saved by Jesus simply had faith. In fact, it is not at all clear whether the apostles and Mary Magdalen and even the Virgin Mary were all baptized. However, there is some indication that John the Baptist may have baptized a lot of people prior to his death. The New Testament does show that faith alone is enough to save a person. There is no other requirement. The example of the thieves during the Crucifixion is good, as is Lazarus, and the healing of the lepers, the blind, paralytics, etc. In most cases they simply believed and they were healed or saved by faith alone.

My quick research is coming up with the same conclusion as art. Mark 16:9-20 is not in most reliable early manuscripts, although it is in the KJ and NIV versions, I'll have to do further research on this

Übergeek 바둑이: Exactly right, point by point.

Tuesday: As a child, I went to a "Bible School" once a week, after school.

In some ways it was a wonderful experience. The ladies who taught it, were wonderful people. It usually dealt with a sort of kid's version of a sermon... and then some singing.. then some arts n crafts. However, I remember a few times, when this singing/sermon would end up in them "speaking in tongues" .. for a 12 yr old, this was actually quite alarming, and it is actually one of the things I remember most.

I personally am quite anti-organized religion. I sometimes think it was because of this childhood experience.

However, I believe that whatever each of chooses to believe, to help us get through this world, is what should be.

Personally, I guess I'm more of a "naturist" (if that is even an acceptable term). This isn't I suppose, about what we personally believe, but I would say that I feel God is all around us. God is nature. God is the air. God is whatever gives everything LIFE. I don't believe that God is at all human like. There isn't a God that sits in judgement, to me. To me, the whole judgement thing comes from "fate" in general. I Do believe what "comes around, goes around"

Hmm, I seem to have forgotten what my point is.

I guess I'm at a disadvantage in that since I don't subscribe to any "organized religion" (I was brought up "Baptist" though), so I don't have any "WORDS" to support me.

I guess the subject of "speaking in tongues" brought some "interesting" memories to me. I think, looking back on it, I feel it was quite irresponsible of them to allow this sort of thing to happen, in front of a bunch of children. I think it had a LOT to do with my current reluctance to accept any form of "organized" religion.

Tuesday: I beg to differ, I visited a church a couple of years where the minister began speaking in tongues during his sermon. as I recall he ruined a rather nice sermon,

Tuesday: just out of curiosity, are you saying that everything that Jesus said and done for 32 years only applied for that 32 years, because you are telling us that what he said doesn't matter after he died

Tuesday: It's a HUGE dilemma to me. I have NO doubt that these 3 particular ladies who "ran" this class were quite wonderful people. In OTHER respects, they had a pretty big impact on my life. I struggle with it. I find it hard to believe that they would have "faked" it. They were generally quite caring about all of us. Is it possible that some people are just so "overcome" that they really think it is happening? I'm totally torn about it. I think overall, I guess I think it's some psychological thing on their part, that they truly believed it was happening. It TRULY blew MY 12 yr old brain though.

Tuesday: "speaking in tongues" isn't what some churches do now...that's a farce. The diciples were given knowledge of strange languages to go to other countries to preach the gospel. Ppl who babble are overcome with something that's for sure. Why does going into a church building suddenly give ppl some power to act like fools. They don't do that in public or at work or the grocery store.


it applies to your accepting part of a verse and discounting the rest

since when was being saved a law?

Saved? Laws?

I think this is the sort of thing that bugs me most about organized religion. Everyone assumes they know what the truth is. How can any of us TRULY know? It's all about FAITH, I guess. And FAITH is a wonderful thing. BUT, it should be a PERSONAL thing, since there is NO way any of us will truly know what the meaning of all of this is, POSSIBLY until we die. (And who is to say EVEN THEN, we will even know?)

All these "BOOKS" that everyone references, are JUST BOOKS. Written by HUMANS. I don't get why that means any more than ME saying what IM saying as a fellow human. LOL. I just don't get it.

Tuesday: you accepting verse 16 and discounting verses 17 and 18
16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

17And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

18They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Tuesday: But it's called the "word of God" by those who believe in it. I don't buy it for a minute.

That's just ME of course, and I certainly can't claim to be right! But those who believe it claim to be right about something they couldn't possibly know!

I'm NOT atheist. I believe STRONGLY in "GOD". The "GOD" I believe in though is nothing like what I have read in any religion. It seems TO ME like all the major religions see "GOD" as human like.

Granted, I have NEVER studied any of this deeply. Probably more than the "average joe", but not as much as some of you.

I don't understand why it can't be a purely personal thing. Why does it have to be a team sport? Where the World Series is going to come and we will find out who the winner is. ??? I don't get that. I will NEVER accept that any of us human beings TRULY know what the real answer is.

rod03801: What you've described is pantheism. It basically means God is in all.

rod03801: thats why it's called "faith"

Artful Dodger: exactly

rod03801: There are things we can know with certainty, other things on which we may disagree, and still other things which we cannot know. It's not unusual for organized or unorganized religion to differ on points. But where in the world is this not true of everything? Business, politics, education, you name it.

Artful Dodger: But y'all (and I DO mean "all") act like you know the definites.

rod03801: I know what I think I understand to be true. And I know what is orthodox and what is not.

The only definites I know are this all sounds like a whole lot of codswallop to me....

PROVE IT....show me or give me or take me to someone that has gone to heaven and come back.

We are all supposed to be sinners and will pay for them....Bloody hell I have paid over and over in life for someones sins, so they must be Y'alls cause I have done nothing wrong...

Artful Dodger: Why the heck should "orthodox" matter? That's the route of everything to me. I DON'T get why ANYone, (Jewish, Muslim, Christian, etc.) thinks THEY have the monopoly on what is correct.

Bernice: Well that is exactly my point. I won't believe any human until they DO indeed come back from "heaven" and can prove it.

rod03801: good Lord.....we agree on sumpin (jk)...

but Im afraid that even if they produced someone who has been to hell and back it wouldnt convince me....Heaven and the pearly gates are what matters, and I wanna meet the man/woman/child who has been there and done that.....

rod03801: I'm talking about the orthodox Christian views. And those do matter. There are certain things the church has agreed upon that have stood the test of time. And they are supported by the Bible. So yeah, that matters. And what the alternative? Everyone walks around with the attitude that, "I don't know." That's a silly alternative. Some people hold views that they are comfortable with but they are based on personal preferences. To me that seems even more crazy.

Bernice: um yeah, Jesus was in both places ;)

Artful Dodger: a book written by humans? that's silly to be reluctant to believe THATS the word of GOD?

Very illogical

rod03801: Why is it illogical? You think God isn't capable of inspiring men to write a book?

Artful Dodger: "Inspired"??? Please.

Not one that should make everyone go to war against each other. And hate each other, because of stuff that CANT be proven.

When the human like GOD comes and stands here and says what the truth is, I will believe in the human like GOD.

Until then, I will continue to believe the more logical idea that God is everything around us, air, life in general, not a person like IDOL at all.

Artful Dodger: Now AD, you have just told me that he was there....I want him to prove to me he was there!!

I don't think HE can...it would only be heresay...

if men wrote THE book there must be lies in it,,,it would be impossible not to have at least some little untruth in it....human nature or aren't these men human?

rod03801: yep.....me also :)

It would be easier if God inspired someone to take some pictures and videos of Heaven and send them to Earth so people can finally see for themselves. I'm sure God is capable of doing that.

rod03801: Human like God? Christianity doesn't teach that. And there are plenty of people, atheists, intellectuals, regular joes, who became Christians after examining the claims of Christ. It sounds to me like you're just rejecting it out of hand. Hostile even. But that's ok. Some believe and some don't. You can't come to faith on your own anyway.

Pedro Martínez: well if he is as good as they say he is.... why not?
but by the same token please don't ask me to hang by my fingernails waiting for the pics

Artful Dodger: Well Im afraid Im not hostile but I just don't believe....give me proof and I would apologise unequivocably(sp)

Bernice: Well if I were God, I would certainly want to let my sheep know I exist. You know, I would be appearing from time to time, sending messages, talking to peeps, and whatnot… I wouldn't want to be hiding somewhere and only inspiring men in some obscure ways. But unfortunately, I'm not God.

Pedro Martínez: oh, damn.....I may as well get up off my knees then

Artful Dodger: Hostile? LOL.. NO, if anything just the opposite. I'm happy that people have some sort of faith. It's a silly argument though to call disagreement "hostility" though. Sounds like many of the arguments that you fight so fervently against.

Artful Dodger: When You, or any other "orthodox" of any religion can PROVE it, I will happily fall in step.

Bernice:

rod03801: I wasn't saying your method of disagreeing was hostile but that your attitude toward religion and in particular Christian claims seemed hostile. ;)