Artful Dodger: I know that this is addressed to ROd but that would fit me....the reason...I was forced into becoming a catholic so that I could get married when I was carrying a catholic mans child LOL...he had a Sister a Nun and a Brother a Priest, so of course the family lived and breathed religion....it was force fed down my throat...I even had to sign a document that I would school my children in a catholic school. I didnt send my 2 to a RC school and they both did real well, thank you very much.....so you MAY understand why I am hostile.

Also I was made go to church every Sunday come rain, Hail or shine...not pleasant when up until then my religious experiences were voluntary.

Artful Dodger: It's "hostile" to prefer more "proof" than a book written by humans? The God I believe in, reveals itself every day. That's all I'm saying. The God I see many others talking about? I've NEVER seen anything that makes it seem true. The God I see most talking about, seems to be just a way to make others "obey" what their common belief is.

Bernice: I do understand. I've heard similar stories before and it's sad really. People meant well I suppose.

Frankly, I find the Bible quite convincing. I think God has adequately revealed himself in his Word, and through His Son. I think that God reveals himself through the world (but not as Rod sees it but as a demonstration of his creative power). There are many things I've investigated through the years that demonstrate intellectually that Christianity is true. That appeals to me because when I was young I was told to 'just believe." Well, the skeptics in the world challenged me and I had no answers to their questions. "Just believe" was no longer good enough. So I began asking lots of questions. And honestly I haven't stopped asking. I know what I believe to be ultimate true and I know what I am totally clueless on. God for example, is incomprehensible. Anyone who fully understands God is either a liar, a deceiver, or a complete fool. No one can fully know God as he really is.

We can't begin to fully understand the ways of God. We know some things, but not all. So the things I say I believer to be true are really only those things that are revealed. Each one I could make a rational argument for (such as baptism and it's place in the church). Ask me about hell and I'll tell you honestly that neither do I know and neither does anyone really know about the nature of hell. There are four views of hell and they are all well supported by rational argument and based on the Bible. Why is there no agreement? Well the Bible isn't exactly crystal clear on this. There are some things we know, some things we absolutely don't know, and other things of which we have only a glimpse. ;)

rod03801: The god you believe in is a god made in your own image unless what you believe happens to be true. Just saying (this is true for everyone I suppose). If 100 people have 100 different views of God, either all are wrong or just ONE is right and the others wrong. You can't have 100 people with differing views on something all being correct. That is illogical. So it seems to me that if you're going to bother believing in something, one should give a reasoned effort to see out what's true etc ;)

Artful Dodger: and a BOOK, written by HUMANS, of any religion, doesn't do it. Nothing you can quote from any of those books is EVER going to be proof of anything significant. The proof I see daily is all the proof I need. THank you.

rod03801: down boy! I get it ;)

rod03801: but yer still wrong

Artful Dodger: because a silly book says so? Or WHY? HMM?

rod03801: Because I said so.

I forgot to mention - God runs everything by me first. ;)

Artful Dodger: Until he runs it by ME, I'll continue to scoff at all the books that claim to be written by God.

rod03801: I'll bet you scoff in a hostile way

Artful Dodger: And if all are not "illuminated" then it's perfectly logical.

a leap of faith requires no reason.. it just is.

These are the secret sayings that the living Jesus spoke and Didymos Judas Thomas recorded.

1. And he said, "Whoever discovers the interpretation of these sayings will not taste death."

2. Jesus said, "Those who seek should not stop seeking until they find. When they find, they will be disturbed. When they are disturbed, they will marvel, and will reign over all. [And after they have reigned they will rest.]"

3. Jesus said, "If your leaders say to you, 'Look, the (Father's) kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the (Father's) kingdom is within you and it is outside you.

37. His disciples said, "When will you appear to us, and when will we see you?"

Jesus said, "When you strip without being ashamed, and you take your clothes and put them under your feet like little children and trample then, then [you] will see the son of the living one and you will not be afraid."

77. Jesus said, "I am the light that is over all things. I am all: from me all came forth, and to me all attained.

Split a piece of wood; I am there.
Lift up the stone, and you will find me there."

(V): When you think about it it is hard to take anything the Bible says literally it is all one great big jigsaw puzzle. Apart from some of the actural places that still exist today. I find it very hard to believe that anything especially the OT was inspired by God when it was wrote for Jews by Jews and the laws were wrote to make sure that the Rabbi got the best of every thing including all the best food. Reminds me of our politicians today, one law for them and one for the rest of us.

Tuesday: I have worked on the St John,s Fragment the oldest papyrus that is supposed to exist in the world today and I still dont believe in the God that exists in the Bible. I believe like Rod it is a personal thing and can mean different things to different people.

Artful Dodger: "Frankly, I find the Bible quite convincing. I think God has adequately revealed himself in his Word, and through His Son. "
there you have it...its YOUR prerogative to believe. not KNOW.

Tuesday: I've never seen Winnie the Pooh, so he didn't exist either, oh but there are books that say it was so.

Mousetrap: That's because when it comes to the Bible it's best to remember the PaRDeS rule of interpretation.

* Peshat (פְּשָׁט) — "plain" ("simple") or the direct meaning[1].
* Remez (רֶמֶז) — "hints" or the deep (allegoric: hidden or symbolic) meaning beyond just the literal sense.
* Derash (דְּרַשׁ) — from Hebrew darash: "inquire" ("seek") — the comparative (midrashic) meaning, as given through similar occurrences.
* Sod (סוֹד) (pronounced with a long O as in 'bone') — "secret" ("mystery") or the mystical meaning, as given through inspiration or revelation.


..... As to who gets the best cut.. some was.. some was things like cleanliness.

Mousetrap: I always thought when in the NT we being described as a body, implied that.

A hand does not see/feel the same way as a nose, does it

Tuesday: Yes I have seen things too with out being close to death. But I am still not convinced. I went to a service once where the Minister said he had heard his name being called in the night and he was convinced it was God calling to him. I hear my name being called all the time but I dont believe it is God I believe is a trick of the
nerves remembering long ago sounds. So what is to prevent different nerves remembering images instead of sounds I have no clue.

(V): Exactly! It does,nt

Mousetrap: maybe you're hearing voices

The Col:

Mousetrap: When it came to Moses seeing the ten plagues and such.. It could be said he was seeing the future. Or, he was connecting unconsciously to some gland that animals have still got the sense to have regarding feeling certain vibrations when it comes to EM and other such natural vibrations that occur.

Do we need Derek??

Artful Dodger: I think the scripture on the seed and the sower says nay to that. God may give the option, but as to whether you take up on that has to be a matter of free will. Any lack of free will and we are not Children.. just robots.

You may think I'm making this up, but Mr Roboto by Styx describes that very scenario

Mousetrap: A friend has alzheimers...from her room in the "gaol" that she is locked into she sees her partner out in the garden all the time...she is as healthy as a buck rabbit and isn't anywhere near death...nothing wrong with her eyes either...but why is she seeing him and I can't...maybe your nerves theory is correct....

Bernice: the person she is seeing is her living partner...in fact as long as "god" lets him he will be here for dinner tonite.

Tuesday: are meds involved? my mom got a little loopy near the end, but it was probably the morphine talking

Tuesday: my error,I didn't read the details

The Col: this friend is on meds as well, and Im sure she would be alright (albeit a little confused) if she wasn't on them....what has happened to her is she dirty's her knickers all the time which never ever happened before, proof that medication isnt good. of course it is common knowledge that the medication is to keep them quiet so the nurses don't have to work as hard.

I might add this lady is only 54 years old

(V): We all need our voices to be heard